# Would military geniuses of today and recent times do well yesterday? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015 "2011-10-27T22:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/1 "2011-10-27T22:40:56Z")
Bouncing off of > **[Would military geniuses of the past do well today?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=627892)** > > A criticism I’ve read of some WW2 leaders is that they had gained all of their experience in WW1, a very different type of war, and so were somewhat unfamiliar with the advances in tactics and technology they encountered. This leads me to wonder if... , What about a somewhat reversed situation? E.g. How would Douglas MacArthur have done in Gaul? Would Stonewall Jackson have been able to rout the Persians at Thermopylae like he did the US at Manassas? How would Norman Schwarzkopf have done at the Somme? Would Hideki Tojo have been able to take Troy? You can assume that you have the latest Chronowagon 3000 XM Time Machine all powered up. You also have the MemoryEraser XP if you want to erase the General’s knowledge of the specific battle or war (learned retrospectively through study of history) from his mind while preserving his tactical knowledge and talent. You may also wipe him back to childhood and send him to an Ancient military academy or apprenticeship if you want. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/2 "2011-10-27T22:44:26Z")
Since when was MacArthur a genius? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/3 "2011-10-28T06:11:46Z")
Obviously, if they have the full advantage of hindsight, they would do remarkably well. Put George Patton near Gettysburg on June 29th, 1862, and he would know EXACTLY where to position his forces. But, taking away detailed hindsight, you still have the advantage of having studied history, and most good modern military officers do. George Patton, even in an alternative American Civil War, would know a lot of things about unit formations and capabilities, about logistics, about command structures, that the generals of the time were still working out by trial and error. He couldn’t help but change the past by introducing knowledge from the present. Again, we can rule out really gross changes, like introducing gunpowder to the Greeks in 300 BC, but you really can’t help but rely on specific technical knowledge that we have today, that was absent then. Otherwise…if all you get to take back with you is your core personality…then…yeah, George Patton would probably have been hell-for-leather as a Cavalry leader in 300 BC! Ripping! Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/4 "2011-10-28T07:08:08Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Since when was MacArthur a genius? Obnoxious personality aside, MacArthur’s actions in the Pacific in WWII were really well done, and the landing at Inchon in Korea was pretty brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/5 "2011-10-28T12:31:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Obnoxious personality aside, MacArthur’s actions in the Pacific in WWII were really well done, and the landing at Inchon in Korea was pretty brilliant. I’ll give him Inchon, it was truly brilliant, but you have to deduct points for letting himself get caught flatfooted by the Chinese intervention and the UN forces having to bug out all the way past Inchon and lose Seoul to the Communists again. Equally, in WW2 for every brilliant move like jumping to land at Aitape and Hollandia leaving the Japanese army far behind and hopelessly cut off, there was a slogging meat grinder like Buna–Gona. Particularly damning, to me at least, was his pointless insistence on liberating every square inch of the Philippines out of hubris rather than any actual military necessity. The Japanese on the islands were cut off and impotent, there was no need to spill Allied blood aside from avenging Macarthur’s humiliating defeat there at the beginning of the war. It ranks up there with the Australian offensives aimed at Rabaul in 1945 for sheer pointlessness. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/6 "2011-10-30T06:24:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Bouncing off of > > [Would military geniuses of the past do well today? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=627892) > > , > > What about a somewhat reversed situation? E.g. How would Douglas MacArthur have done in Gaul? Would Stonewall Jackson have been able to rout the Persians at Thermopylae like he did the US at Manassas? How would Norman Schwarzkopf have done at the Somme? Would Hideki Tojo have been able to take Troy? > > You can assume that you have the latest Chronowagon 3000 XM Time Machine all powered up. You also have the MemoryEraser XP if you want to erase the General’s knowledge of the specific battle or war (learned retrospectively through study of history) from his mind while preserving his tactical knowledge and talent. You may also wipe him back to childhood and send him to an Ancient military academy or apprenticeship if you want. Generals are over-rated. They are a convenient focus for historians looking for simple answers. When you look into the nuts and bolts of a battle, you often find that the outcome was either pre-determined by circumstance, or that the turning point was initiated by acts of bravery and intuition by Colonels and Captains. Napolean ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/7 "2011-10-30T06:44:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Obnoxious personality aside, MacArthur’s actions in the Pacific in WWII were really well done, and the landing at Inchon in Korea was pretty brilliant. Inchon came down to luck. The reason it was so lightly defended was because the North Koreans knew it was very difficult to land troops there. The American Navy knew it too and told MacArthur he should pick another landing site. But MacArthur insisted on Inchon. And when the landing forces arrived, the weather was perfect and the landing was successful. But in my opinion, a military operation which is dependent on a factor you have no control over and which is usually against success is not a brilliant plan. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/8 "2011-10-30T10:57:49Z")
No. Modern officers would be used to the professionalism & self-discipline of modern enlisted troops–which would be largely absent from soldiers of the past, who were obedient only under brutal physical discipline. Also, no high-quality intel or Staff Officers would exist. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/9 "2011-10-30T14:18:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Obviously, if they have the full advantage of hindsight, they would do remarkably well. Put George Patton near Gettysburg on June 29th, 1862, and he would know EXACTLY where to position his forces. > > But, taking away detailed hindsight, you still have the advantage of having studied history, and most good modern military officers do. George Patton, even in an alternative American Civil War, would know a lot of things about unit formations and capabilities, about logistics, about command structures, that the generals of the time were still working out by trial and error. He couldn’t help but change the past by introducing knowledge from the present. > > Again, we can rule out really gross changes, like introducing gunpowder to the Greeks in 300 BC, but you really can’t help but rely on specific technical knowledge that we have today, that was absent then. > > Otherwise…if all you get to take back with you is your core personality…then…yeah, George Patton would probably have been hell-for-leather as a Cavalry leader in 300 BC! Ripping! > > Trinopus Patton in Lee’s position in Gettysburg, is still a disaster. Patton faced determind resistance twice in his career; oin Sicily for a while and at Metz and made a meal of it. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/10 "2011-10-30T15:20:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Patton in Lee’s position in Gettysburg, is still a disaster. I disagree. Patton would have used his artillery more effectively, and likely not ordered Pickett’s Charge. He may have lit a fire under A.P. Hill’s ass, and taken Cemetery Ridge on Day 1, completely changing the outcome… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/11 "2011-10-30T15:35:01Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I disagree. Patton would have used his artillery more effectively, and likely not ordered Pickett’s Charge. He may have lit a fire under A.P. Hill’s ass, and taken Cemetery Ridge on Day 1, completely changing the outcome… Lee employed his artillery pretty effectivly, the problem was that Confederate Artillery was crap. On the first day, Lee spent most of the time having absolutly no idea what was going on, Patton, unless he time travelled with radios, is going to be in the same position. ANd Patton would have loved Pickett’s charge, it was right in his playbook. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/12 "2011-10-30T15:44:40Z")
My understanding is that Lee failed to bracket his artillery…such that a lot of it fell long or short, causing little damage. Had he set it up at more of an angle to the Union line, even the short/long rounds would have done some damage. Also think Patton was more aggressive. The South can win Gettysburg on Day 1, if they go balls to the wall. To do it, A.P. Hill has to blow through the relatively light resistance he encounters, and occupy Cemetery Ridge, and the guys coming in behind him need to haul ass to solidify the position. The Army of the Potomac doesn’t get there in time. I’ve done it many times in various simulations. But I have the advantage of knowing what happens… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/13 "2011-10-30T16:35:26Z")
The problem is having Patton refight the Battle of Gettysburg gives him an unfair advantage over Lee, who was fighting it for the first time. Let’s have them both fight the Battle of Chambersburg instead and see how they do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/14 "2011-10-30T16:37:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Also think Patton was more aggressive. The South can win Gettysburg on Day 1, if they go balls to the wall. Suppose Patton was the commander at the Somme. Would he still have been right if he was more aggressive? ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/15 "2011-10-30T16:44:39Z")
MacArthur also made a few howlers at the start of WWII. Letting his entire air force be wiped out on the ground (the day _ **after** _ Pearl Harbor) was just one of them. I have always thought he should have immediately been fired for that one. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/16 "2011-10-30T20:39:04Z")
Was it really the day after, or just a dateline issue? 8 December in the Phillipines is 7 December in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/17 "2011-10-30T20:50:28Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Patton in Lee’s position in Gettysburg, is still a disaster. . . . I was defaulting to the idea of Patton as Meade… In Lee’s position, wouldn’t he simply resign his commission, go to Lincoln, and ask for amnesty? (Or…would he pretend to remain in command, but make bad decisions on purpose, to shorten the war? Hm…) > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Suppose Patton was the commander at the Somme. Would he still have been right if he was more aggressive? Again, it all depends on how much knowledge he is allowed to bring back with him. He could institute the German “infiltration tactics” of 1918, two years earlier, and make impressive ground gains. If followed up adequately, could win the war, certainly shorten it. It’s aggression…without being a futile frontal assault. Trinopus ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/18 "2011-10-31T02:21:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Again, it all depends on how much knowledge he is allowed to bring back with him. He could institute the German “infiltration tactics” of 1918, two years earlier, and make impressive ground gains. If followed up adequately, could win the war, certainly shorten it. It’s aggression…without being a futile frontal assault. But as I’ve said, merely knowing the historical outcome of what happened is not military genius. I could go back in time and win the Battle of Gettysburg but that doesn’t mean I’m a better general than Lee or Meade. There’s no reason to think Patton would have come up with the idea of infiltration attacks on his own in 1916. ---
**Author:** ![malm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/278dde/32.png) [@malm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malm)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/19 "2011-10-31T11:13:38Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > No. > > Modern officers would be used to the professionalism & self-discipline of modern enlisted troops–which would be largely absent from soldiers of the past, who were obedient only under brutal physical discipline. > > Also, no high-quality intel or Staff Officers would exist. excluding for example the Roman Legions… a very modern army for its day. The legions are probably the prime example of ancient armies any decent general/officer from today could be able to function in ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015/20 "2011-10-31T11:22:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as I’ve said, merely knowing the historical outcome of what happened is not military genius. I could go back in time and win the Battle of Gettysburg but that doesn’t mean I’m a better general than Lee or Meade. There’s no reason to think Patton would have come up with the idea of infiltration attacks on his own in 1916. To be fair to Patton, historically he saw the tanks potential, and he might have done something similar to combined arms British attacks of the 100 days. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-military-geniuses-of-today-and-recent-times-do-well-yesterday/601015.md?page=2)