# Would murder and/or death rates rise, or lower, if the 2nd Amendment was abolished? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491 "2018-03-13T14:55:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/181 "2018-03-18T21:26:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Keep on moving those goal posts. > > And, how about both? If gun deaths go down by 100, and all other forms of violent death go up by 15, that’s a plus. You can point at those 15 knife/strangle… whatever murders all you want, but the total number of people killed by violent activity would be lower. People don’t use guns because they are making an aesthetic choice, they use them because they are the easiest and most efficient way to kill people. Trouble is, there’s no way to know what the true ratio would be. It might be just as likely that 15 fewer are killed by guns and 100 by other means once you remove people’s ability to defend themselves from those other means. And whether the total number of gun deaths is 15 or 100, the fact remains that the majority of them by far involve people who wanted to die or who deserve to die through criminal acts. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And you refuse to acknowledge that guns make suicide much easier and effective, because otherwise your numbers would look even worse than they already do if you don’t include them. I don’t remotely refuse to acknowledge that guns make suicide much easier and more effective. In fact, I regard it as a plus, for without guns people may choose more painful and protracted methods of killing themselves. But let’s face it, most of the reason suicides are brought up in gun control debates is because it makes anti-gun numbers look more persuasive and portrays guns as a bigger threat to the public at large than they really are. Take away the number of people killed by guns in suicides and self-defense and the total wrongfully killed by guns is much, much smaller, and therefore more likely equalled or overtaken by wrongful killings via other means were guns no longer available. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/182 "2018-03-18T21:33:54Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Trouble is, there’s no way to know what the true ratio would be. It might be just as likely that 15 fewer are killed by guns and 100 by other means once you remove people’s ability to defend themselves from those other means. And whether the total number of gun deaths is 15 or 100, the fact remains that the majority of them by far involve people who wanted to die or who deserve to die through criminal acts. That would be a possibility, but I strongly doubt that is how things would play out. I also do not agree that people who have not committed capital crimes and received due process “deserve to die”. It is possible that it is an unavoidable tragedy that you may have to take someone else life to protect that of yours or someone else’s, but it should not be a cuase for celebration. > [@](#): > > I don’t remotely refuse to acknowledge that guns make suicide much easier and more effective. In fact, I regard it as a plus, for without guns people may choose more painful and protracted methods of killing themselves. But let’s face it, most of the reason suicides are brought up in gun control debates is because it makes anti-gun numbers look more persuasive and portrays guns as a bigger threat to the public at large than they really are. Take away the number of people killed by guns in suicides and self-defense and the total wrongfully killed by guns is much, much smaller, and therefore more likely equalled or overtaken by wrongful killings via other means were guns no longer available. As I pointed out in another thread, when I was going through some depression, had I had a gun, I may not be here today. I am very glad to be here today, as my life is greatly improved from where it was at that time. There are likely many people who have gone through short bits of depression and shitty life situations who did have a gun, and took the easy way out, when had they not had access to a gun, they would have worked things out, and be here today as happy, productive members of society. Most people don’t try suicide twice, and most forms of suicide have a success rate of under 10%, while guns have a failure rate of under 10%. Without guns, even if the rate of attempted suicide was the same, the rate of successful would be much lower. I also think that the gun is more of a temptation than other forms, specifically because it is so effective and reliable. Worse than attempting suicide, IMHO, is failing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/183 "2018-03-18T21:44:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That would be a possibility, but I strongly doubt that is how things would play out. > > I also do not agree that people who have not committed capital crimes and received due process “deserve to die”. It is possible that it is an unavoidable tragedy that you may have to take someone else life to protect that of yours or someone else’s, but it should not be a cuase for celebration. Who’s celebrating it? When you break into someone’s home or confront them at gunpoint in a convenience store you are clearly signaling your willingness to harm or murder them to get what you want, which, btw, may include harming or murdering them. Thus if you die as a consequence of their defending themselves, you have only yourself to blame. This is what I mean when I say they deserved it. Had they not undertaken to threaten innocent people they would not have died. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > As I pointed out in another thread, when I was going through some depression, had I had a gun, I may not be here today. I am very glad to be here today, as my life is greatly improved from where it was at that time. That’s all well and good and I’m happy for you, but I don’t believe it should be incumbent on the public at large to allow themselves to be put at needless risk so that potential suicides by gun don’t happen. People need to be responsible for their own decisions and their own actions and allow everyone else to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/184 "2018-03-18T21:58:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Keep on moving those goal posts. > > And, how about both? If gun deaths go down by 100, and all other forms of violent death go up by 15, that’s a plus. You can point at those 15 knife/strangle… whatever murders all you want, but the total number of people killed by violent activity would be lower. People don’t use guns because they are making an aesthetic choice, they use them because they are the easiest and most efficient way to kill people. > > And you refuse to acknowledge that guns make suicide much easier and effective, because otherwise your numbers would look even worse than they already do if you don’t include them. who is moving goal posts? what is the OP? “_Would murder and/or death rates rise, or lower, if the 2nd Amendment was abolished?_” NOT would “_gun deaths_” lower. And of course with people unable to defend themselves even against knives the rates may go up even more. Suicide is a basic human right. Altho certainly there can be a debate on it, blithely including \*gun suicides \* is putting up chaff. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/185 "2018-03-18T22:00:17Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But let’s face it, most of the reason suicides are brought up in gun control debates is because it makes anti-gun numbers look more persuasive and portrays guns as a bigger threat to the public at large than they really are. Take away the number of people killed by guns in suicides and self-defense and the total wrongfully killed by guns is much, much smaller, and therefore more likely equalled or overtaken by wrongful killings via other means were guns no longer available. Right, altho perhaps sometimes tragic, suicide by gun is by no means a threat to the public at large . Killing yourself by driving into oncoming traffic, otoh… ---
**Author:** ![Sjoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sjoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sjoe)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/186 "2018-03-19T03:09:34Z")
Sounds like some nationwide gun research is needed, OOPS, for some reason is it not allowed . . . ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/187 "2018-03-19T03:24:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No- that is incorrect. The USA is about smack dab in the middle. Sure with a vague qualifier such as “developed” countries, you can define “developed” as anything you want. :dubious: Nobody would be satisfied if, for example, Germans were to say “Hey! Our frequency of road fatalities compares well to India!”: we obviously want to compare Germany to countries with anything like a similar GDP per capita, as there’s a high correlation in general between poverty and traffic fatalities. Same thing for homicides: poverty and homicides are correlated. Now if you go down the list of GDPs, the US sits near the top. But you have to go a _long_ way down to find a country with a homicide rate like the US’. That is statistically significant and shouldn’t be handwaved. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/188 "2018-03-19T03:37:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s very good evidence that the ubiquity of guns is not responsible for the number of gun deaths that occur, especially once you subtract suicides and deaths that occur to bad guys in the commission of crime. No, it isn’t. If anything, to try to make it a relevant stat you’d have to change it to “Deaths per gun _owner_” or something. It’s rather silly IMO to treat every gun a single enthusiast’s collection as separate entities, let alone guns sat on a rack in a store. > [@](#): > > And I have to say that I get really tired of other countries’ gun death rates being brought up in relation to that in the U.S. The U.S. is different than other countries in many ways. One might even say it’s exceptional, given the large number of things that have been invented or discovered here that are now commonplace around the world and in our economic and military power. But be that as it may, we don’t have the same history as other countries and we have different and more large-scale societal problems than do most other countries, especially given developments of the last 50 years or so. Sure, and why not go ahead and reinvent the wheel? The fact that it’s been proven useful elsewhere doesn’t mean it will be in the US, because reasons. > [@](#): > > And like I said upthread, guns are excellent protection against home invasion and its accompanying consequences such as rape, robbery, beatings, etc. Without the ability to own guns for their defense people would largely be defenseless against home invasion whether the miscreant armed with guns, knives, ball bats, crowbars or whatever. (Actually I think it’s fairly reasonable to allow licensed ownership of handguns, shotguns and hunting rifles say, but I have to put that to one side in this thread.) I don’t own a gun. In the extremely unlikely event someone tries to break into my house while I’m there, I’ll call the police. If someone breaks into my house while I’m not there, I’m glad they won’t find a gun. We can play the “What if…some unlikely scenario” game with or without guns. What if someone tries to set fire to my house while I’m in it? What if several armed guys attack? What if someone just waits near my house and tries to just gun me down as I enter/leave or as I pass a window? What if someone just tries to shiv me in the street? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/189 "2018-03-19T03:52:21Z")
> [@Sjoe](#): > > Sounds like some nationwide gun research is needed, OOPS, for some reason is it not allowed . . . What do you mean “not allowed”? Anyone who wants can go do nationwide gun research. One particular agency in the federal government (the CDC) is prohibited from using their federal funds “to advocate or promote gun control.” That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/190 "2018-03-19T07:29:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean “not allowed”? Anyone who wants can go do nationwide gun research. One particular agency in the federal government (the CDC) is prohibited from using their federal funds “to advocate or promote gun control.” That is all. Yeah, it turns out that the somewhat subjective nature of that rule (if the data shows a correlation between gun ownership and something we both agree is a bad outcome, is that advocating gun control?), coupled with the funding cuts that came in at the same time, have basically killed research in this area. It’s not just democrats who have attempted to repeal that amendment, there was also a republican-led attempt to do so, and Jay “Dickey Amendment” Dickey himself also thought it should be repealed, as well as of course many medical associations (141 of them) such as the American Medical Association and Doctors for America. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/191 "2018-03-19T08:07:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What do you mean “not allowed”? Anyone who wants can go do nationwide gun research. One particular agency in the federal government (the CDC) is prohibited from using their federal funds “to advocate or promote gun control.” That is all. You mean, the one particular federal government agency that’s _specifically_ tasked with researching health, safety, and security threats? That agency? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/192 "2018-03-19T16:58:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And I have to say that I get really tired of other countries’ gun death rates being brought up in relation to that in the U.S. The U.S. is different than other countries in many ways. One might even say it’s exceptional [snip] And this is why I don’t debate gun rights with Americans. It always ends up coming down to American exceptionalism. Fuck what works everywhere else, we’re **AMERICANS!** It’s one of those things that is painfully not true to anyone outside of America, and I’d probably have better luck convincing the board that Trump is the bestest president ever than convincing them that Americans are not nearly as exceptional as they think they are. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/193 "2018-03-19T17:52:29Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > And this is why I don’t debate gun rights with Americans. It always ends up coming down to American exceptionalism. Fuck what works everywhere else, we’re **AMERICANS!** … “everywhere else”? Including Mexico? Or did you mean to constrain this comment to “developed countries” or some other euphemism for the non-shit-holey parts of the world? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/194 "2018-03-19T17:57:43Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > You mean, the one particular federal government agency that’s _specifically_ tasked with researching health, safety, and security threats? That agency? Yes, the one who is only prohibited from advocating or promoting gun control. [They can do research on guns](https://www.dallasnews.com/news/news/2016/06/13/the-cdc-isnt-banned-from-studying-gun-violence-its-just-too-scared-to-do-its-job). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/195 "2018-03-19T17:59:33Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > You mean, the one particular federal government agency that’s _specifically_ tasked with researching health, safety, and security threats? That agency? Yes, the one made up of Doctors, not Criminologists. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/196 "2018-03-19T17:59:37Z")
Go ahead, **HD**. Be the first poster \*ever \*to explain \*what \*is exceptional about the US that makes anyone else’s experience completely inapplicable. We’d love to see you do it. We’d love to see \*anybody \*do it. Show us it really isn’t just a crude level of denialism. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/197 "2018-03-19T18:09:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Go ahead, **HD**. Be the first poster \*ever \*to explain \*what \*is exceptional about the US that makes anyone else’s experience completely inapplicable. We’d love to see you do it. We’d love to see \*anybody \*do it. Show us it really isn’t just a crude level of denialism. Can you? The USA is exceptional just like every other large nation is. France is exceptional, Russia is exceptional, China, etc. But oddly, our murder rate is by no means exceptional. It falls smack dab in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/198 "2018-03-19T18:56:20Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > And this is why I don’t debate gun rights with Americans. It always ends up coming down to American exceptionalism. Like it or not, America is exceptional. The the freedoms, economic dynamism and entrepreneurial spirit of this less than 250 year old country have given the world automobiles, airplanes, skyscrapers, radio, television, computers, etc., etc., etc., and it was the first to successfully develop and employ nuclear weapons. We’ve pulled Europe’s ass out of the fire in both world wars (while simultaneously defeating Japan in the second). Most of Europe owes us thanks for the fact that they aren’t Seig Heil-ing each other or calling each other ‘comrade’, and, as for Canuckistan, most of its larger cities would be villages if not for their proximity to large urban cities in America, and it pretty much owes its own freedom, defense and security to the U.S. as well. > [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > Fuck what works everywhere else, we’re **AMERICANS!** This, of course, is not remotely what I said. The fact is that in the same way that America has been unique in its accomplishments and dynamism, it’s also unique in its problems. And it’s the unique nature of its problems that is responsible for the fact that solutions that might work better in other countries won’t work here. We have unique advantages and we have unique problems. This is all readily apparent to everyone but those who are genetically predisposed to hate the fact that some have more than others and that people, circumstances and countries are not all the same. Thus they deny both America’s exceptionalism and the unique nature of its problems and endlessly seek to transform the U.S. into Europe, a continent whose past is full of violent conflict and which is now eating itself in the throes of self-destructive liberalism. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/199 "2018-03-19T19:28:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Go ahead, **HD**. Be the first poster \*ever \*to explain \*what \*is exceptional about the US that makes anyone else’s experience completely inapplicable. We’d love to see you do it. We’d love to see \*anybody \*do it. Show us it really isn’t just a crude level of denialism. Can you? This is a silly strawman. I never claimed that anyone else’s experience is “_completely_ inapplicable”, but if you want to make international comparisons, there are differences, and it’s sometimes important and worth discussing those differences, and the impacts they may have on one’s comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/200 "2018-03-19T19:42:44Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Like it or not, America is exceptional. Yup. It is exceptional at locking up it’s own citizens, with the highest incarceration rate in the world. I’ll give you that one. The rest I’m just laughing at. Seriously, I can’t stop laughing about that bit about Europe being “a continent whose past is full of violent conflict.” You are aware that [America has been at war 93% of it’s existence](https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-the-time-222-out-of-239-years-since-1776/5565946), 222 out of the 239 Years from 1776-2015, right? Thanks for proving that denial is so much more than a river in Egypt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491.md?page=11)