# Would murder and/or death rates rise, or lower, if the 2nd Amendment was abolished? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491 "2018-03-13T14:55:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/61 "2018-03-13T20:18:28Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sorry, I assumed a reasonable interpretation of ‘best defense’. > > As **Czarcasm** points out, the cost of a safe room is prohibitive. And not entirely reliable. What if the miscreant happens to come in through a door or window that places him between you and the safe room? What if you’re sound asleep and don’t hear him enter? What if he threatens to burn the house down around you unless you come out of the safe room? Unless your safe room, which you’ve somehow managed to get all your family awakened and into from other areas of the house, is fireproof and very well insulated, you’ll likely come out rather than face the prospect of being burned to death. > > Clearly there are other defenses that would be more effective. But most people can’t afford to live in gated communities with closed circuit tvs and a security team and a fireproof and immediately accessible safe room. > > Most people, however, can afford a gun. So when all things are considered, for most people a gun is indeed the ‘best defense’. Holy shit! Between this post and your “Raping by bad guy” post, have you ever considered moving out of whatever war-zone you happen to be in? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/62 "2018-03-13T20:20:33Z")
Well, let us see what kind of laws would be passed. Before Heller, the DC and Chicaco pretty banned the possession of handguns. San Francisco was on the way. CA and other states have various “assault weapon” bans. So, I suppose you’d have a number of towns, maybe even counties and possibly even a State that would ban handguns. But as **ElvisL1ves** blithely pointed out, Guns could come from out of area. So, the ban would do little, since criminals dont buy their guns legally from gun stores and dont care about permits. I would suppose “assault weapons” would be banned quite widely, even nationally- but since they are rarely\* used in crimes, that would have no significant effect. Net effect- no significant decrease in violent crime. So, evn if the 2nd was repealed, you’d have no real effect. You’d have to do a national ban, tighen the border, and start mass confiscation of the 300,000,000 guns already out there. That might have a effect\*\*, but can anyone seriously think that could occur? \*1-2%. \*\* we’d have to build a lot more prisons for the otherwise law abiding citizesn caught with a gun, that’s for sure, so I guess that would be a effect. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/63 "2018-03-13T20:21:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > … All I am asking is that for the purpose of this thread we focus on the OP for just this little while. **Sage Rat** and I did that early on. We pointed out Australia’s real-world experience, where they went from a country with relatively many guns to a country with significantly fewer guns in a short period of time. It did not appear to alter the trajectory of their total death rate in any significant way. I did not see a response from you on that point. What do you think? Does the Australian example show us we should not really expect a significant change in the total death rate if we were to repeal the 2nd Amendment? Or is there a reason you don’t think the example of Australia’s experience is applicable? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/64 "2018-03-13T20:34:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*\* we’d have to build a lot more prisons for the otherwise law abiding citizesn caught with a gun, that’s for sure, so I guess that would be a effect. I am unaware of the legal term “otherwise law abiding citizen”-Does it mean the same thing as “criminal”? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/65 "2018-03-13T20:36:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But as **ElvisL1ves** blithely pointed out, Guns could come from out of area. That was neither blithe nor hypothetical, [but fact](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.fd02c4382bf1). > [@](#): > > … most of the guns recovered in Chicago came from outside the state. > … > Only 40 percent of the guns recovered in the city were purchased in Illinois, the report read, including hundreds purchased at gun shops outside city boundaries. > … > Many of the guns recovered in Chicago — a fifth of them — were purchased in Indiana, which abuts the city’s eastern border. An additional 9 percent of the guns recovered in the city came from Mississippi and Wisconsin. > … > Last year, the attorney general of New York issued a report about the flow of guns into his state. Attorney General Eric Schneiderman identified what he called the “iron pipeline,” a string of East Coast states through which guns flowed into the state. > > In New York City, for example, nearly 9 in 10 firearms come from out of state. > [@](#): > > So, the ban would do little, since criminals dont buy their guns legally from gun stores and dont care about permits. It means only that \*effective \*legislation has to be national instead of an easily-navigated patchwork. States and cities do what they can, but can’t put up walls on their borders. > [@](#): > > You’d have to do a national ban, tighen the border, and start mass confiscation of the 300,000,000 guns already out there. That might have a effect\*\*, but can anyone seriously think that could occur? Tighten the border against importation, you mean? Mexico is trying that, to take care of their own problem with masses of guns brought in from the US, but with only partial success. > [@](#): > > we’d have to build a lot more prisons for the otherwise law abiding citizesn caught with a gun, that’s for sure, so I guess that would be a effect. Only the ones who decide to become outlaws instead. What the hell is this “law-abiding citizen” crap anyway, if it means “only laws I like”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/66 "2018-03-13T20:38:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am unaware of the legal term “otherwise law abiding citizen”-Does it mean the same thing as “criminal”? Well, when you pass a new law, and before that “A” was legal and afterwards “A” is illegal, that’s what it means. Like when they made booze illegal. That worked out fine, didnt it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/67 "2018-03-13T20:41:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That was neither blithe nor hypothetical, [but fact](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/11/07/where-the-guns-used-in-chicago-actually-came-from/?utm_term=.fd02c4382bf1). > > It means only that \*effective \*legislation has to be national instead of an easily-navigated patchwork. States and cities do what they can, but can’t put up walls on their borders. > > Tighten the border against importation, you mean? Mexico is trying that, to take care of their own problem with masses of guns brought in from the US, but with only partial success. > > ? Yep, as I said we’d have to make the ban national, and we’d have to build that damn wall. And then we’d have to go door to door confiscating those 300 million guns. None of that could possibly happen. So, thus ElvisL1ves, all you have done is proven, without any doubt, that local gun control laws are useless and of course we all know nation wide gun confiscation aint gonna happen. Ipso facto, gun control is useless. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/68 "2018-03-13T20:45:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Holy shit! Between this post and your “Raping by bad guy” post, have you ever considered moving out of whatever war-zone you happen to be in? Please. One doesn’t have to live in a blighted area to fall prey to any of the huge number of entitled, drug or gang addled dipshits who commit these kinds of crimes. Anyone anywhere can find themselves face to face with these types of crime at any time. You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this knows it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/69 "2018-03-13T20:48:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep, as I said we’d have to make the ban national, and we’d have to build that damn wall. And then we’d have to go door to door confiscating those 300 million guns. > > None of that could possibly happen. A national ban, or effective more-limited legislation, is not possible? Go buy a machine gun. A wall may not be possible, but it’s not necessary, and nobody is demanding one except Trump and his most loyal followers. And, law-abiding citizens will abide the law, just like sworn law enforcement officers will enforce it, despite anybody’s absurd militia fantasies. > [@](#): > > So, thus ElvisL1ves, all you have done is proven, without any doubt, that local gun control laws are useless Nobody said that. Anything is better than nothing, and if local laws make state and national laws more possible, then that’s not only good but necessary. > [@](#): > > and of course we all know nation wide gun confiscation aint gonna happen. Strawmen certainly can, though. > [@](#): > > Ipso facto, gun control is useless. Thank you! The rest of the world, dude. The rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/70 "2018-03-13T20:52:31Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Please. One doesn’t have to live in a blighted area to fall prey to any of the huge number of entitled, drug or gang addled dipshits who commit these kinds of crimes. Anyone anywhere can find themselves face to face with these types of crime at any time. You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this knows it. Sounds like “Crime Hypochondria” to me-the fear that any crime you hear about, no matter how distant and/or rare, is something that is likely to happen to you. It’s just not a problem for me. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/71 "2018-03-13T20:56:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sounds like “Crime Hypochondria” to me-the fear that any crime you hear about, no matter how distant and/or rare, is something that is likely to happen to you. It’s just not a problem for me. I think you’re confusing ‘possible’ with “likely”. **Starving Artist** was talking about the former. Your post is referring to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/72 "2018-03-13T21:02:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you’re confusing ‘possible’ with “likely”. **Starving Artist** was talking about the former. Your post is referring to the latter. With all the scenarios he seems to be afraid of(and thus prepared for), I don’t think I am the one who is confused. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/73 "2018-03-13T21:12:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think you’re confusing ‘possible’ with “likely”. **Starving Artist** was talking about the former. Your post is referring to the latter. As long as we are talking about possible, not likely, he should make sure that his house is meteor proof, too. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/74 "2018-03-13T21:19:21Z")
Well, from what I can tell, you are something like forty times more likely on foot to be killed by a car than in a confrontation with a burglar, so you should never walk anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/75 "2018-03-13T21:22:56Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Well, from what I can tell, you are something like forty times more likely on foot to be killed by a car than in a confrontation with a burglar, so you should never walk anywhere. Or carry a weapon big enough to take down a car. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/76 "2018-03-13T21:24:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As long as we are talking about possible, not likely, he should make sure that his house is meteor proof, too. He should be free to do as he chooses. If he wants to buy a gun, he should be free to do so. If he wants to meteor-proof his house, he should be free to do so. That’s the general principle I subscribe to. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/77 "2018-03-13T21:28:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or carry a weapon big enough to take down a car. There have been times I have felt that way. Mostly, though, it would screw with the balance of my bicycle. Unless, maybe, it was like a no-recoil weapon, like a bazooka. Damn but that would be satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/78 "2018-03-13T21:30:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > He should be free to do as he chooses. If he wants to buy a gun, he should be free to do so. If he wants to meteor-proof his house, he should be free to do so. That’s the general principle I subscribe to. Think he should get some AA emplacements to deal with [these](https://nypost.com/2017/12/10/2-killed-2-injured-after-small-plane-crashes-into-house/) [sorts](http://fox5sandiego.com/2017/12/09/small-plane-crashes-in-clairemont/) [of threats](http://abc7news.com/small-plane-crashes-into-house-in-san-jose-injuring-3/2671371/)? > [@eschereal](#): > > There have been times I have felt that way. Mostly, though, it would screw with the balance of my bicycle. Unless, maybe, it was like a no-recoil weapon, like a bazooka. Damn but that would be satisfying. Grenades have no recoil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/79 "2018-03-13T21:34:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Grenades have no recoil. And city work crews are notoriously slow in patching the subsequent holes in the roadway, making it a rougher ride. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491/80 "2018-03-13T21:35:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Think he should get some AA emplacements to deal with [these](https://nypost.com/2017/12/10/2-killed-2-injured-after-small-plane-crashes-into-house/) [sorts](http://fox5sandiego.com/2017/12/09/small-plane-crashes-in-clairemont/) [of threats](http://abc7news.com/small-plane-crashes-into-house-in-san-jose-injuring-3/2671371/)? I suspect the meteor-proofing will also handle a small plane just fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-murder-and-or-death-rates-rise-or-lower-if-the-2nd-amendment-was-abolished/810491.md?page=5)