# Would passenger dirigibles be feasible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939 "2011-03-16T17:48:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/81 "2011-03-20T12:15:03Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I think that airships are in much the same category as flying boats- everyone agrees they’re Very Cool, but the people who would most likely want to take trips on them (like me) also couldn’t afford to pay whatever outrageous sum the fare would invariably cost due to the economics of it all. When Chaulks was flying Mallards, I think thier prices were reasonable (not the cheapest, but not extreme either). But I could be misremembering. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/82 "2011-03-20T13:47:49Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > When Chaulks was flying Mallards, I think thier prices were reasonable (not the cheapest, but not extreme either). But I could be misremembering. When I say “Flying Boats”, I’m talking British Empire Airways and Pan Am Clipper style flying boats operating long distance, multi-stop routes between the far corners of the world with stopovers in exotic places where one can either wear a pith helmet or swim in a coral blue sea. I would love- _love_- to fly from Australia to London aboard a Short Solent flying boat, stopping off in places like Singapore, Bombay, Cairo, and Marseilles on the way. But even then, the cost of a flight was something insane like $10,000 in modern currency and it took a week and a half at least. It’s the sort of thing you’d do once for the experience, but seeing as neither British Airways nor Air France were able to keep a plane that could cross the Atlantic in three hours commercially viable, how many people- realistically- would regularly pay $10,000 plus for a one-way flight to London or Sydney that’s going to take over a week? Not many, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/83 "2011-03-23T02:40:16Z")
This might be the next best thing to actually taking a zeppelin trip: [http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films/2011/farewell](http://www.clevelandfilm.org/festival/films/2011/farewell) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/84 "2012-06-26T14:34:44Z")
_The Atlantic_ magazine on the 75th anniversary of the _Hindenburg_’s loss - some great pics: [75 Years Since the Hindenburg Disaster - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/05/75-years-since-the-hindenburg-disaster/100292/) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/85 "2012-06-26T15:06:30Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > _The Atlantic_ magazine on the 75th anniversary of the _Hindenburg_’s loss - some great pics: [75 Years Since the Hindenburg Disaster - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/05/75-years-since-the-hindenburg-disaster/100292/) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/86 "2012-06-26T15:28:29Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The density of air and its drag on large objects is much the same today as in 1936. Without some as yet undreamed-of advance, airships are going to burn a lot of fuel to travel even at normal train speeds. Yeah, but they’ll _hover_ much more fuel-efficiently than helicopters or Harriers. So all we need to do to justify them is to think of “hover-intensive applications.” ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/87 "2012-06-26T18:29:31Z")
As an item of interest, I have a book on rigid dirigibles that contains the information that the Hindenberg could cross the Atlantic on $37 worth of fuel. If challenged on this, I’ll see if I can look up the reference tonight. Also the Germans during WWI developed a series of “high-flying” airships that could cruise at 20,000 to 27,000 feet (or thereabouts). I understand that this was not too pleasant for the crew. ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/88 "2012-06-26T23:24:24Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > … The US Navy had five dirigibles … (some information) … the Navy abandoned the dirigble concept … > [@Polycarp](#): > > … (some clarifications) … After World War II, the Navy continued messing around with airships, running blimps out of Lakehurst (N.J.) Naval Air Station (the dirigible base, and site of the Hindenburg crash): [http://www.naval-airships.org/Default.aspx?pageId=993560](http://www.naval-airships.org/Default.aspx?pageId=993560) I can remember these babies flying over the Jersey shore – the crews in the gondolas would wave to us kids. And! Just last year: [http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2011/10/gannett-navy-after-50-years-airship-program-resumes-102711/](http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2011/10/gannett-navy-after-50-years-airship-program-resumes-102711/) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/89 "2012-06-27T02:00:51Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > …Also the Germans during WWI developed a series of “high-flying” airships that could cruise at 20,000 to 27,000 feet (or thereabouts). I understand that this was not too pleasant for the crew. Too cold? Air too thin? Too much bucking up and down? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/90 "2012-06-27T02:48:25Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > As an item of interest, I have a book on rigid dirigibles that contains the information that the Hindenberg could cross the Atlantic on $37 worth of fuel. If challenged on this, I’ll see if I can look up the reference tonight. I’d like to see that reference. The Hindenburg used 4 Daimler-Benz 16 cylinder DB 602 diesel engines. Even at the price of diesel in those days, you probably couldn’t power those suckers up for $37, let alone fly across the Atlantic. [Airships.net](http://www.airships.net/hindenburg/flight-operations-procedures) claims that: > [@](#): > > Hindenburg’s normal cruise setting produced 820 h.p. and consumed 130 kg/hr of diesel fuel. If needed, Hindenburg’s engines could be operated up to 1520 RPM for full power, which produced 1050 h.p. and consumed 180 kg/hr of fuel. That’s around 10,000 kg of fuel. Elsewhere on the site a poster claims that it also consumed consumed 1305 kg of lube oil on a trans-Atlantic flight. [Answers.com](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_fuel_consumption_of_the_Hindenburg) gives a different set of numbers that are even higher, but I suspect [Airships.net](http://Airships.net) is more accurate. > [@](#): > > Hindenburg was equipped with 4 x Daimpler-Benz 16-cylinder diesel engines. Together, they developed 4 x 850 (3,400) horsepower for continuous cruising. Approximately, they consumed 550 kg of crude oil per every hour of work. So, the Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) of each Hindenburg’s engine was 0.16 kg/(HP h). Typically, Hindenburg was capable to complete an Atlantic crossing (from Frankfurt to New York) in 60 hours and consume only 32,640 kg of diesel fuel. On her last voyage, Hindenburg completed the Atlantic crossing in 77 hours due to the fact that headwind was very strong and burned 42 tonnes of crude oil. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/91 "2012-06-27T03:06:57Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > When I say “Flying Boats”, I’m talking British Empire Airways and Pan Am Clipper style flying boats operating long distance, multi-stop routes between the far corners of the world with stopovers in exotic places where one can either wear a pith helmet or swim in a coral blue sea. > > I would love- _love_- to fly from Australia to London aboard a Short Solent flying boat, stopping off in places like Singapore, Bombay, Cairo, and Marseilles on the way. But even then, the cost of a flight was something insane like $10,000 in modern currency and it took a week and a half at least. It’s the sort of thing you’d do once for the experience, but seeing as neither British Airways nor Air France were able to keep a plane that could cross the Atlantic in three hours commercially viable, how many people- realistically- would regularly pay $10,000 plus for a one-way flight to London or Sydney that’s going to take over a week? Not many, sadly. You might want to read a book called “Syd’s (or Sid’s) Pirates” He was one of the original pilots for Cathay Pacific, flying DC3s on the transatlantic route. Really lovely guy…and some great stories to be heard ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/92 "2012-06-27T07:37:05Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Definitely true. But your giant airship is going to need a giant & expensive hangar But they’ve already been built, and are currently sitting empty. At Lakehurst, New Jersey, Mountain View, California, and Akron, Ohio (this one is still used sometimes by Goodyear for their blimps). You could probably rent those for a cheap price. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/93 "2012-06-27T10:53:17Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > You might want to read a book called “Syd’s (or Sid’s) Pirates” > > He was one of the original pilots for Cathay Pacific, flying DC3s on the transatlantic route. Really lovely guy…and some great stories to be heard DC3s on the transatlantic route? When was that? I wouldn’t have thought they had the range. ---
**Author:** ![Orionizer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orionizer/32/4442_2.png) [@Orionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orionizer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/94 "2012-06-27T11:30:32Z")
Just curious, but instead of using helium or hydrogen, would it be possible to use heated air like in a hot air balloon? That way, the cost would be much less if this were possible… ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/95 "2012-06-27T15:47:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Daylate > …Also the Germans during WWI developed a series of “high-flying” airships that could cruise at 20,000 to 27,000 feet (or thereabouts). I understand that this was not too pleasant for the crew. > > Too cold? Air too thin? Too much bucking up and down? Something else? It seemed to be a combination of extreme cold and thin air - no pressurization. ---
**Author:** ![allyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@allyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/allyn)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/96 "2012-06-27T17:10:46Z")
These high flying airships were known as “Height Climbers”. Here are a couple of interesting links: [http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers\_zeppelins.htm](http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_zeppelins.htm) [http://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html](http://sped2work.tripod.com/zeppelins.html) ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/97 "2012-06-27T18:47:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Daylate > As an item of interest, I have a book on rigid dirigibles that contains the information that the Hindenberg could cross the Atlantic on $37 worth of fuel. If challenged on this, I’ll see if I can look up the reference tonight. > > I’d like to see that reference. The Hindenburg used 4 Daimler-Benz 16 cylinder DB 602 diesel engines. Even at the price of diesel in those days, you probably couldn’t power those suckers up for $37, let alone fly across the Atlantic. The reference came from a book entitled “Ships in the Sky”, copyright 1957, by the rather well-known author John Toland. I’ll type out the relevant paragraph here (my $37 memory was off by a factor of 8). Toland was talking about some of the economics of dirigible travel. “The season had also been a revelation to investors. The ship, twice the size of the _Graf Zeppelin_ and more than three city blocks long, was as cheap to run as a Ford car. A scant 300 dollar’s worth of crude oil was needed to carry a trip payload of seventy passengers at 400 dollars each, plus 26,000 pounds of freight at a dollar a pound. Air flight, reduced from the 2250 dollars charged per passenger by the Graf Zeppelin, was no longer for the rich alone but well within the budget of the average traveler.” The figure of 10,000 given earlier for fuel consumption on a typical Atlantic crossing works out to 22,050 pounds. Figuring 6.5 pounds per gallon, this comes out to3,392 gallons. So at $300 per crossing for fuel, we have a cost of 8.8 cents per gallon. I have no idea what oil cost back in the middle thirties, but this might be in the ballpark. BTW, my inflation calculator says that $400 (the passenger fare) in 1937 would be $6,008 in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/98 "2012-06-27T20:14:38Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > Just curious, but instead of using helium or hydrogen, would it be possible to use heated air like in a hot air balloon? That way, the cost would be much less if this were possible… I can’t see that being feasible, for something the size of the Hindenburg. Heated air provides much less lift than H or He, so you would need a much, much larger ‘balloon’. Looking at hot air balloons, it seems like you need several times the volume of balloon vs. payload. Seems like it would take a really big balloon! Then there is the cost of heating the air. Buoyant H or He stays buoyant; air must be kept hot to remain buoyant. That requires fairly frequent heating, possibly even continuous at higher altitudes. The cost of the natural gas (or other fuel) to keep the air heated would be pretty high. As well as the weight & space occupied by this fuel. I don’t see this as being cost effective. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/99 "2012-06-27T20:19:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I’d like to see that reference. The Hindenburg used 4 Daimler-Benz 16 cylinder DB 602 diesel engines. Even at the price of diesel in those days, you probably couldn’t power those suckers up for $37, let alone fly across the Atlantic. > > [Airships.net](http://www.airships.net/hindenburg/flight-operations-procedures) claims that: > > That’s around 10,000 kg of fuel. > > Elsewhere on the site a poster claims that it also consumed consumed 1305 kg of lube oil on a trans-Atlantic flight. > > [Answers.com](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_fuel_consumption_of_the_Hindenburg) gives a different set of numbers that are even higher, but I suspect [Airships.net](http://Airships.net) is more accurate. What was the fuel capacity for the _Hindenburg_? How much fuel did they typically have left over when they reached their destination? Did they have a (required either by German law or company policy) safety reserve? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939/100 "2012-06-27T23:58:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What was the fuel capacity for the _Hindenburg_? How much fuel did they typically have left over when they reached their destination? Did they have a (required either by German law or company policy) safety reserve? [Airships.net](http://www.airships.net/hindenburg/disaster/commerce-department-report) > [@](#): > > Its length was about 803.8 feet; height, 147 feet; maximum diameter, 135 feet; fineness ratio (length over diameter), about 6; total gas volume, 7,063,000 cubic feet; normal volume, 6,710,000 cubic feet. Weight of ship with necessary equipment and fuel was 430,950 pounds; maximum fuel capacity, 143,650 pounds; total payload 41,990 pounds, and total lift (under standard conditions) was 472,940 pounds. Its rated cruising speed was about 75 statute m.p,h.; its maximum speed was slightly over 84 m.p.h. Passenger space was entirely within the hull. That would indicate quite a reserve of fuel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-passenger-dirigibles-be-feasible/574939.md?page=6)