# Would people in the US really try to fight the military/police with hunting rifles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910 "2006-07-02T03:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/21 "2006-07-02T14:43:31Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > . . . I’m reminded of a constant theme I see from a subsection of legitimate gun owners in the US- namely, that they own their guns to Defend The US Constitution™. That’s called the “insurrectionary theory” of the Second Amendment. Discussed in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=201061&highlight=amendment) old thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/22 "2006-07-02T14:45:57Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > The point I’m trying to make is that it’s tantamount to suicide to TRY and fight The Government with force of arms these days, regardless of what the US Declaration of Independence says on the subject. > > Back in 1776, the pinnacle of Military Technology (at least on land) was a Kentucky Rifle (most muskets, such as the Brown Bess, were smoothbored), grenades, and muzzle-loading cannon. (The Puckle Gun doesn’t count- it was never used militarily) > > You didn’t have body armour (as we know it), tanks, machine-guns, night vision gear, tear-gas, radios, satellites, or any of the other stuff that makes trying to take on the ATF with an AR-15 and a brace of Glock 17s an obviously bad idea… hence the OP. Yes. The Iraqi people, nowadays, are well-armed with automatic rifles – and were under Hussein’s rule. It made no difference. “You have rifles? Fine, the goverment has heavy machine guns, tanks, armored personnel carriers, flamethrowers, assault helicopters, mortars, grenade launchers . . . Now shut up and pay your taxes!” ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/23 "2006-07-02T15:28:23Z")
Honestly, I don’t even think they’d try to take the guns from your average citizens. Because the average citizen wouldn’t do dick with his guns. They’d sit at the window cleaning their handguns while their neighbors are arrested. They’d drive past the gay bar where the patrons are being rounded up and sent to camps, and then go hunting. A large portion would actively support any evil regime you’d care to name, and an even larger protion couldn’t be bothered to do anything about it. There’s no reason to take guns away from the majority to try and disarm the minority of insurrectionists. Not when the government has overwhelming power and a willingness to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/24 "2006-07-02T15:31:27Z")
What makes you think that the people would have to fight the military? The people _are_ the military. If the country came apart the military would divide as well. That would make it much less of a massacre than the OP seems to think it would be, because they’d also bring their equipment and training with them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/25 "2006-07-02T15:44:22Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > What makes you think that the people would have to fight the military? The people _are_ the military. If the country came apart the military would divide as well. That would make it much less of a massacre than the OP seems to think it would be, because they’d also bring their equipment and training with them. [Oh, it would be a massacre, all right, just not a one-sided one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=377743) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/26 "2006-07-02T15:58:39Z")
What about citizens’ militias? I recall a doper who started an “ **Ask the Militia Guy** ” thread. Oh, I just found it. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=151573) it is. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/27 "2006-07-02T16:24:02Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > What about citizens’ militias? > > I recall a doper who started an “ **Ask the Militia Guy** ” thread. Oh, I just found it. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=151573) it is. No offence **Crafter\_Man** , but Citizen’s Militias are _exactly_ the sort of people that give recreational/sporting shooters, hunters, and collectors a bad name. Some of the stuff in that other linked thread seems a bit… extreme for me. Let’s just say that there’s no way you’d be allowed a Gun Licence in Australia if you made those views known to the police, or even the governing body of most shooting or hunting clubs. Have you read David Brin’s novel _The Postman_, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/28 "2006-07-02T16:26:40Z")
Since a lot of people are citing David Koresh and the Branch Davidians as proof that the American people are willing to take up their guns and shoot it out with the big, bad government agents, it’s worth taking a deep breath and assessing what actually happened with regards to the sect at Mount Carmel. Anti-government movements have used it as propaganda. In their version of events, Koresh and his followers were some sort freedom-loving, libertarian/anarchist people who only wanted to live peacefully without interference from the federal government, and they only took up arms and started killing people once the government’s jack-booted thugs came to do whatever the government’s jack-booted thugs do. This is a work of fiction. David Koresh was a cult leader and a religious fanatic. He was not a freedom-lover. He was a freedom-hater. His goal was to establish a religious theocracy. He believed that God would shortly be arriving to slaughter everyone on Earth except for the members of his own little cult, and he intended to fight on God’s side. Long before the first federal agent showed up at his door, he had already shot a rival cult leader. He was amassing a huge stockpile of illegal weapons, planning terrorist attacks, and raping and molesting children for years before the ATF was finally summoned to take him down. Luckily, Koresh and his pals are not good representatives of how the typical American gun owner feels. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/29 "2006-07-02T18:58:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes. The Iraqi people, nowadays, are well-armed with automatic rifles – and were under Hussein’s rule. It made no difference. “You have rifles? Fine, the goverment has heavy machine guns, tanks, armored personnel carriers, flamethrowers, assault helicopters, mortars, grenade launchers . . . Now shut up and pay your taxes!” Was owning an AK legal back when Hussein was in power? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/30 "2006-07-02T19:10:47Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Was owning an AK legal back when Hussein was in power? AFAIK. Legal or not, practically every family owned one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/31 "2006-07-02T19:30:23Z")
> [@ululate](#): > > The insurgency in Iraq seems to be doing okay, even with all those soldiers in body armor and the helicopters and that other stuff; I’d figure Americans are taking notes. It’s far easier to resist a blatently evil foreign enemy at the end of long supply chain with nearly no local support. A tyrannical US government at home would have far fewer worries about logistics, much more public support, and much less willingness for the public to consider it evil no matter what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/32 "2006-07-02T20:53:34Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > It’s far easier to resist a blatently evil foreign enemy at the end of long supply chain with nearly no local support. A tyrannical US government at home would have far fewer worries about logistics, much more public support, and much less willingness for the public to consider it evil no matter what it does. I think you’re underestimating how seriously some people would consider an attempt at disarming the civilian population. Take another look at one of those Red State/Blue State maps from the last election. Lots of the Red States are largely rural. In some of those areas, disarmament ranks slightly below sodomizing children on the scale of undesirable activities. If you’ve spent most of your life in urban areas, you might be very surprised at the visceral reaction this would cause. Also seem to be assuming the military would all march in lockstep with the plan, which is far from certain. As noted above by **Airman Doors** , I’d expect some significant defections from the military and from local law enforcement. A “hunting rifle” is still a powerful weapon. It may not have the magazine capacity or full auto capability of a military weapon, but it can still reach out and touch somebody from a half mile away or further. An insurgency doesn’t have to engage in pitched battles. Even a handful of snipers can slow an army’s advance tremendously. Then there’s the National Guard to consider. You could see mostly intact guard units joining the insurgency, leading to a general revolt. If the government were serious about disarmament, they could probably accomplish it, eventually. But it would be a very costly endeavor…and might be the last action attempted by the existing government. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/33 "2006-07-02T20:56:47Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > No offence **Crafter\_Man** , but Citizen’s Militias are _exactly_ the sort of people that give recreational/sporting shooters, hunters, and collectors a bad name. Really? Why is that? Please explain. > [@Martini Enfield](#): > > Some of the stuff in that other linked thread seems a bit… extreme for me. Let’s just say that there’s no way you’d be allowed a Gun Licence in Australia if you made those views known to the police, or even the governing body of most shooting or hunting clubs. My right to keep and bear arms is inalienable. Its existence is not contingent upon “permission” from any_one_ or any_thing_, including the government. So it looks like I won’t be moving to Australia soon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/34 "2006-07-02T21:12:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > My right to keep and bear arms is inalienable. Its existence is not contingent upon “permission” from any_one_ or any_thing_, including the government. I’m no expert on US gun control law, but I believe you’re rather mistaken. You can alienate yourself from your right to keep and bear arms in any number of ways, such as by committing a felony. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/35 "2006-07-02T21:16:55Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I’m no expert on US gun control law, but I believe you’re rather mistaken. You can alienate yourself from your right to keep and bear arms in any number of ways, such as by committing a felony. **Crafter\_Man** ain’t necessarily talking about law. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/36 "2006-07-02T21:19:14Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > The OP wasn’t concerned with a scenario involving the confiscation of **ALL** guns- just the introduction of Australian-style laws requiring licensing and registration, and the banning of semi-auto longarms, high capacity magazines, and snub-nose/short barrel handguns- on a US-wide level. Wait a minute. I live in Missouri, & I think that’s what we already have! I think the real answer is that in much of the USA, the police & the gun-owning populace get along pretty well. Many police forces would simply neglect to strictly enforce gun laws unless a gun popped up in some other crime, or look for some peaceful way to get guns off the street. Many citizens would find the killing of a cop far more offensive than a cop doing his job (& it’s not that hard to hide a gun, rather than use it to murder a police officer, who you may know personally). There are some anti-state cranks, like the “Christian Identity” crowd, who hoard unlicensed guns & get in shootouts with cops, but that’s not a hypothetical; that already happens, & they are a pathetic minority in any case. A lot of pro-gun people are also “law-&-order conservatives.” ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/37 "2006-07-02T22:12:12Z")
Aren’t the circumstances that’d dictate that such things would happen so remote? A whole lot of shit would have to go down first before anything like this would come close to maybe perhaps remotely happening. Yes. “Maybe perhaps remotely”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/38 "2006-07-02T22:21:10Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think you’re underestimating how seriously some people would consider an attempt at disarming the civilian population. Take another look at one of those Red State/Blue State maps from the last election. Lots of the Red States are largely rural. In some of those areas, disarmament ranks slightly below sodomizing children on the scale of undesirable activities. If you’ve spent most of your life in urban areas, you might be very surprised at the visceral reaction this would cause. > > Also seem to be assuming the military would all march in lockstep with the plan, which is far from certain. As noted above by **Airman Doors** , I’d expect some significant defections from the military and from local law enforcement. A “hunting rifle” is still a powerful weapon. It may not have the magazine capacity or full auto capability of a military weapon, but it can still reach out and touch somebody from a half mile away or further. An insurgency doesn’t have to engage in pitched battles. Even a handful of snipers can slow an army’s advance tremendously. Then there’s the National Guard to consider. You could see mostly intact guard units joining the insurgency, leading to a general revolt. > > If the government were serious about disarmament, they could probably accomplish it, eventually. But it would be a very costly endeavor…and might be the last action attempted by the existing government. Multiple problems with this ever taking place much less wondering if people will fight back. Airman is right about the military. They are citizen soldiers and as such, reliability in executing such an order is not certain. Compliance by local police forces is also uncertain since they would be disarming/arresting/shooting the same neighbors which they have kids in the same school with or have other community ties with. This is not even taking into consideration that some states may simply choose secession instead of having the federal government walk over their citizens. Texas comes immediately to mind. One can only imagine what might happen when federal agencies attempt to start disarming citizens in El Paso or Amarillo. Something that also comes to mind is that the same law enforcement agencies that can’t secure the US borders, are losing the war on drugs and have let many inner cities turn into war zones are somehow going to turn into the Gestapo overnight and start disarming US citizens? Highly doubtful. Forget Joe Sixpack in suburbia and wait till they start going after street gangs to disarm them. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/39 "2006-07-02T22:58:55Z")
There is a very fundamental point that needs to be stressed in these debates - the right of the people to own firearms and defend themselves is critically important, because it flows out of the idea that absolute power derives from the people - that government exists through the consent of the people. Vesting the people with the right to stay armed and defend themselves is a constant reminder of just who runs who. Some people believe that people should be vassals of the state - that the government is their protector, their nanny, their parent. That they are essentailly serfs, to be told what to do and how they must live. ‘Enlightened’ people and elites run society, and whatever freedom people have is freedom that is granted by the all-powerful state. But America was founded on opposite principles - that the people are ultimately free, and that government only exists to the extent that it represents the will of free people to have some order in their society. Constitution and bill of rights does not describe what rights the people have - it describes the limits of the government. Taking away the essential right of people to defend themselves and to maintain arms to take up against the government should it run amok is profound statement that the power ultimately rests with the people. The day the U.S. government forces citizens to lay down their arms and accept the protection of the state will be the day that the nature of that government changes in a very fundamental way. Whether that defense is practical or not, or discussions of tactical issues arising out an actual defense plan are wholly beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910/40 "2006-07-02T23:29:58Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > There is a very fundamental point that needs to be stressed in these debates - the right of the people to own firearms and defend themselves is critically important, because it flows out of the idea that absolute power derives from the people - that government exists through the consent of the people. Vesting the people with the right to stay armed and defend themselves is a constant reminder of just who runs who. But defend themselves **from the state?!** It’s no state at all, is it, if the people have an acknowledged right to resist it with armed force? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-people-in-the-us-really-try-to-fight-the-military-police-with-hunting-rifles/362910.md?page=3)