# Would Russia have failed in Afghanistan anyway ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128 "2015-10-19T12:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/61 "2015-10-20T14:08:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think one of the unpredictable factors is that aside from the cost of the Afghanistan war, the pace of domestic reforms in the Soviet Union was accelerating. I find it very hard to disentangle the prospects of the Soviet Union crumbling because of all these various problems (war, poor economy with increasing defense spending on the arms race, etc) with the growing domestic calls to change more things. > > So what I’m saying is, the Soviet Union just might have fallen apart before an opportunity to pacify Afghanistan ever presented itself. Then again, maybe Gorbachev would have been disposed of for someone more hardline, too. So it could have looked at China and gone into business in a big way. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/62 "2015-10-20T14:16:25Z")
I don’t think so… Deng was a huge pragmatist, and I’m not sure that the Soviets really had anyone like him. The thing about Deng Xiaoping is that he lived as a revolutionary, as opposed to the Soviet leadership who grew up in a statist system. I think China had a continual revolutionary zeal – for better or mostly worse – since 1949, whereas the USSR was comparatively a stale bureaucratic state. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/63 "2015-10-20T17:43:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > [Adam Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Jones_(Canadian_scholar)) seems to be a one trick pony on the subject and I’m not sure many share his obsessive focus on calling every conflict a genocide. Not every conflict but many wars of Superpowers against small states. In Vietnam and Korea, USA suffered relatively minor losses, while causing enormous civilian losses among the populations of these countries. In both cases USA has caused at least a million civilian losses. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/64 "2015-10-20T18:14:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Not every conflict but many wars of Superpowers against small states. In Vietnam and Korea, USA suffered relatively minor losses, while causing enormous civilian losses among the populations of these countries. In both cases USA has caused at least a million civilian losses. Let’s just stay on topic. Afghanistan is an example of two superpowers involved in two separate wars in a small state, neither of which they have been able to win. Do you consider these two wars to be acts of genocide on the part of these two superpowers (Russia & US)? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/65 "2015-10-20T18:16:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Let’s just stay on topic. > > Afghanistan is an example of two superpowers involved in two separate wars in a small state, neither of which they have been able to win. Do you consider these two wars to be acts of genocide on the part of these two superpowers (Russia & US)? To a big degree. Soviet actions in Afghanistan were similar to US actions in Korea and Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/66 "2015-10-20T18:34:22Z")
Let me ask a different way: Is there a war in history that you are aware of that does not consist of a majority of casualties being civilians? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/67 "2015-10-20T18:37:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Let me ask a different way: > > Is there a war in history that you are aware of that does not consist of a majority of casualties being civilians? WWI – mostly soldiers. WWII – half soldiers half civilians. Korea, Vietnam – genocides by USA. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/68 "2015-10-20T18:38:36Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > To a big degree. Soviet actions in Afghanistan were similar to US actions in Korea and Vietnam. In what way were the US actions similar to those of the Soviets in Afghanistan?? How was the Korean war similar in any way to any of this? Were you just looking for wars that the US was engaged in that would give a high body count or do you really feel there was some similarity between them? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/69 "2015-10-20T18:40:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > In what way were the US actions similar to those of the Soviets in Afghanistan?? How was the Korean war similar in any way to any of this? Were you just looking for wars that the US was engaged in that would give a high body count or do you really feel there was some similarity between them? Similar in disregard for native population. Actually US had caused many more civilian casualties then USSR. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/70 "2015-10-20T18:44:54Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Similar in disregard for native population. Actually US had caused many more civilian casualties then USSR. Do you have a cite to back up this claim? You’ve made it several times now in this thread, and I assume you are cherry picking numbers from external conflicts and ignoring the numbers of Soviet citizens killed by their own regime, civilians killed by the Soviets in WWII and maybe glossing over those killed in the various adventures in the Eastern Bloc, but let’s see a cite demonstrating this. So, there is no similarity for the Korean war, and you WERE just going for body county. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/71 "2015-10-20T18:46:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > civilians killed by the Soviets in WWII In WWII, USSR was the victim of aggression and genocide by Germany. USSR paid a terrible price to save the World from the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/72 "2015-10-20T18:48:41Z")
For body counts you need this, a fascinating and useful resource for all your commie/capitalist/religious mortality arguments. Marvel at the body counts, wince at the brutality… [http://necrometrics.com/](http://necrometrics.com/) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/73 "2015-10-20T18:49:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In WWII, USSR was the victim of aggression and genocide by Germany. USSR paid a terrible price to save the World from the Nazis. Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US. So, do you have a cite, yes or no? You made the claim, back it up as you like with whatever you feel does so…or don’t and keep making an unsubstantiated claim. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/74 "2015-10-20T18:50:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US. But USA has inflicted millions of civilian losses in these wars. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/75 "2015-10-20T18:56:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US. Gulf of Tonkin ? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/76 "2015-10-20T18:57:06Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > But USA has inflicted millions of civilian losses in these wars. And the Soviets inflicted many, many more millions of deaths in the various wars, purges and adventures it had both internally and externally throughout it’s existence, including WWII. Ok, so you don’t have a cite. Got that. I used an old article from Cecil to dig [this](https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM) one up: > [@](#): > > II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS > > ``` > 4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State > 5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill > 6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State > 7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime > > ``` Granted, it’s a bit dated, and it seems you are correct…since 1991 the US has certainly killed more people than the Soviet Union has. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/77 "2015-10-20T18:58:27Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > WWI – mostly soldiers. WWII – half soldiers half civilians. Might that have been due to conscription and the way in which these wars were fought, i.e. Combatants clearly identifiable and not trying to hide among civilian populations (for the most part)? And the subsequent shift in ratio of casualties due to the changing tactics of war where enemy combatants (for example: Taliban in Afghanistan) have taken to hiding and melding into civilian populations? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/78 "2015-10-20T18:58:57Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Gulf of Tonkin ? Happened in 1964…the US was involved in Vietnam prior to that. That was an excuse for us to become MORE involved, but we were still involved, and the conflict pre-dated US involvement in any case, going back to the 50’s with the French. But, ok…we’ll say the US was the aggressor in that one. Still sort of leaves Korea out, which was my original point. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/79 "2015-10-20T18:59:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 1. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State > 2. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill This is a tremendous exaggeration. GULAG was a tragedy, like US penal system in this century – incarceration rate was very high. About 1.4 million prisoners died in GULAG mainly due to WWII – related economic hardships. Every death is a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128/80 "2015-10-20T19:01:32Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > This is a tremendous exaggeration. GULAG was a tragedy, like US penal system in this century – incarceration rate was very high. About 1.4 million prisoners died in GULAG mainly due to WWII – related economic hardships. Every death is a tragedy. And your cite for this would be…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-russia-have-failed-in-afghanistan-anyway/735128.md?page=5)