# Would Sam Kinison survive today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274 "2007-04-16T00:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/21 "2007-04-16T03:43:13Z")
Imus (that’s who were really talking about, right?) crashed because he didn’t have a point to his remarks. He wasn’t parodying racism or sexism. He wasn’t attacking some institution or celebrity or hypocrisy. He wasn’t attempting to push some free speech barrier. He wasn’t really making a joke - nothing he said was particularly funny. He wasn’t speaking in some state of emotional duress or diminished capacity. He apparently just decided to make some racist and sexist remarks about a bunch of women who hadn’t done anything to deserve that kind of abuse. Sam Kinison, on the other hand, may have said some offensive things. But he always had a reason for saying them. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/22 "2007-04-16T04:57:49Z")
it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/23 "2007-04-16T05:11:03Z")
Addressing the OP: Have you noticed that the \*\*government \*\*didn’t come down on Imus, his employers did. They’re the ones who had the right to keep him on the air or not. That’s free speech. Just because the Constitution guarantees free speech, doesn’t mean owners of radio stations are obligated to support speech that they (or their sponsors or their viewers) find offensive. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/24 "2007-04-16T05:25:26Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] Addressing the OP: Have you noticed that the \*\*government \*\*didn’t come down on Imus, his employers did. They’re the ones who had the right to keep him on the air or not. That’s free speech. Just because the Constitution guarantees free speech, doesn’t mean owners of radio stations are obligated to support speech that they (or their sponsors or their viewers) find offensive. [/QUOTE] Yes, and Kinison could have just as easily been canceled by promoters, had network television appearances called off, album sales dip, etc, etc.. Stick to the debate question please: [QUOTE=pkbites] My question for debate is, would a Sam Kinison today get away with it? Could such an act be successful in todays politically correct mores? [/QUOTE] By successful I mean with the same success Sam enjoyed [millions spent on his products], not just being some unknown on cable radio networks like others here have mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/25 "2007-04-16T06:03:13Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] By successful I mean with the same success Sam enjoyed [millions spent on his products], not just being some unknown on cable radio networks like others here have mentioned. [/QUOTE] Was Kinison wildly more successful then other comedians today that make jokes about homosexuality and race? Matt Stone and Trey Parker are hardly unknown, I imagine they must’ve made well over a million by now and from what I’ve seen of Kinison (still waiting for a specific example of some of his comedy which demonstrates what your talking about) he was no where near as edgy with regard to sexuality or race as South Park. > [@](#): > > Yes, and Kinison could have just as easily been canceled by promoters, had network television appearances called off, album sales dip, etc, etc. From what I can tell from wikipedia et. al. Kinison never had a regular TV or radio show, just a few appearances on Letterman, Howard Stern and the like. So I don’t think his situation was really analogous to Imus even _if_ they were making the same statements. Imus’s radio show relied on a large number of sponsers and on a wide audience to justify syndication, a lot different then if his main income was from stand-up and album sales. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/26 "2007-04-16T06:11:32Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Was Kinison wildly more successful then other comedians today that make jokes about homosexuality and race? Matt Stone and Trey Parker are hardly unknown, I imagine they must’ve made well over a million by now and from what I’ve seen of Kinison (still waiting for a specific example of some of his comedy which demonstrates what your talking about) he was no where near as edgy with regard to sexuality or race as South Park. From what I can tell from wikipedia et. al. Kinison never had a regular TV or radio show, just a few appearances on Letterman, Howard Stern and the like. So I don’t think his situation was really analogous to Imus even _if_ they were making the same statements. Imus’s radio show relied on a large number of sponsers and on a wide audience to justify syndication, a lot different then if his main income was from stand-up and album sales. [/QUOTE] And your post would be a yes or a no answer? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/27 "2007-04-16T06:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? Not an excuse, but it can be a mitigating factor. Keep in mind that making a racist or homophobic remark is not the same things as being racist or homophobic. The intent is an important issue (albeit one that’s difficult to determine). When Lenny Bruce asked if there were any niggers in the audience, do you think he was being racist? I think his intent was to point out the power words can hold over us. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/28 "2007-04-16T06:16:32Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? [/QUOTE] Well, it’s okay to make a racist/homophobic joke if it’s funny. As Krusty the Clown says, “I kid… because I _love_!” There’s a pretty wide gulf between a Sam Kinison and a Brother Dave Gardner. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/29 "2007-04-16T07:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] Well, it’s okay to make a racist/homophobic joke if it’s funny. [/QUOTE] Uh, huh. I’ll bring this fact up before the police & fire commision during my disciplinary hearings for telling one of the thousands of racist, though hillarious, jokes I know in front of black officers. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/30 "2007-04-16T07:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] Uh, huh. I’ll bring this fact up before the police & fire commision during my disciplinary hearings for telling one of the thousands of racist, though hillarious, jokes I know in front of black officers. [/QUOTE] Are we talking about radio and TV entertainers or whats appropriate in city work places? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/31 "2007-04-16T11:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? [/QUOTE] Stick to the question in the OP, please. Or does that only apply to us? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/32 "2007-04-16T12:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? [/QUOTE] Yes. Heck, even if it’s _not_ funny, but you won’t get paid as much for it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/33 "2007-04-16T13:20:43Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] it’s alright to be racist/homophobic if the remark is funny? [/QUOTE] In terms of entertainment? Yes. People who tell racist jokes and get big laughs make it clear that they are joking, which is what makes it ‘okay.’ That was another one of Imus’ problems. Maybe his audience knew he didn’t mean what he was saying, but it sure wasn’t clear to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/34 "2007-04-16T14:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Stick to the question in the OP, please. Or does that only apply to us? [/QUOTE] Yes ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/35 "2007-04-16T14:28:57Z")
But back to the OP: Say kinison had not appeared in the 80’s, and not died in 92. Say he first appeared today, 2007, with the same material. Would it work or would such material be rejected as funny today? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/36 "2007-04-16T14:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] But back to the OP: Say kinison had not appeared in the 80’s, and not died in 92. Say he first appeared today, 2007, with the same material. Would it work or would such material be rejected as funny today? [/QUOTE] I don’t see why not. Plenty of other current comedians have just as edgy, if not edgier, routines. Can you cite the last time a standup comedian has gotten in trouble for offensive jokes? Unless you’re arguing that comics are softer than they have been in the past (which you’d need to support with some kind of evidence), I don’t think you have a case here. Key word is jokes. Richards tirade doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/37 "2007-04-16T14:33:51Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] Say he first appeared today, 2007, with the same material. Would it work or would such material be rejected as funny today? [/QUOTE] Would you care to respond to my comments that comedians with (in my opinion) similarly ‘offensive’ material are very successful today? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/38 "2007-04-16T14:37:39Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Would you care to respond to my comments that comedians with (in my opinion) similarly ‘offensive’ material are very successful today? [/QUOTE] Who? I never see anyone making fun of gays like Sam did. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/39 "2007-04-16T14:41:11Z")
A better example would be Andrew Dice Clay, whose 80’s act definately wouldn’t play today. Call it political correctness or whatever, that stuff just doesn’t work anymore, at least on a national level. Of course, it didn’t last very long back then either. I just don’t remember Sam Kinison as being that offensive. Profane, yes, but not offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274/40 "2007-04-16T14:42:31Z")
Kinison wasn’t racist. I don’t know where that’s coming from. He did the Ethiopian bit and he did a bit about 7-11 workers not speaking English but neither of those bits were racist. He did a bit that might be seen as mildly homophobic about not understanding how a man could be attracted to other men, but I saw that more as a joke about the grossness of men than about bashing homosexuals. Eddie Murphy used to do some far more overtly homophobic material back in the '80’s (material which he later said he regretted and attributed to youth and immaturity on his part). Kinnison’s main schtick was marriage and ex-wives. If anything, I think he’d probably get the most flak now for his material about Christianity and Jesus (Jesus using his hand as a whistle, etc). He’d probably be seen as an enemy of Christ these days. The ironic thing is that Kinnison started off as an Evangelical preacher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-sam-kinison-survive-today/400274.md?page=3)