Would soccer be so popular in your country if you had the 4 major US sports FIRST?

Hate to burst the bubble, because I think everton is wrong in every point but one, but a very good case can be made that American Football evolved from soccer

The rugby elements were added later. This isn’t suprising, because soccer is so primevil that I would expect many, many sports to have evolved from it in some shape or form.

But I want to second smiling bandit’s refutaion of everton’s point about needing more equipment and space for American sports. I played stickball in neighborhood streets as a kid. Stickball is a version of baseball in which all that is required is some sort of small ball and, you guessed it, a stick. No gloves, no bat, just a ball and a broken broomstick - and maybe a couple of shirts to mark the bases*

Also, Bryan Eckers is wrong. The Canadians had nothing to do with those sports. Football evolved in American colleges, Basketball was invented by the American Dr. James Naismith at the Springfield Massachusetts YMCA in 1891and Bryan’s beloved hockey was invented by the ancient Egyptians :slight_smile:

*Joe! Hey! You can’t take first base with you to second! Put it back!

The USA may have been the second nation state to start a football association, but the Scottish Football Association was formed around the same time as the English one. They are still two entirely separate bodies; Scotland is a completely autonomous nation in football terms (as are Northern Ireland and Wales).

I wouldn’t have thought that the fact that football was a British sport would have had much of an effect, since the equally British rugby was popular enough to become American Football. However this is speculation.

Regarding the OP, the UK has had professional ice-hockey for decades, but it doesn’t get much coverage. Crowd figures are probably comparable with club rugby.

Lots of UK kids play basketball at school, but it’s not a popular spectator sport. I think it’s also played speculatively, but TV bosses would regard showing a whole game even once a month as professional suicide.

I’d like to know whether it ever occurs to the talkers in the radio show mentioned in the OP that this is all the result of historical accident; their question could easily be reversed, say if baseball had not become popular until later and rugby had not been played by American universities. Some Americans (not the OP!) seem to be miffed that the world effectively ignores their sports, so they tell themselves that American sports are too sophisticated for simple-minded foreigners. They also assume that they can see everything in a football game that regular fans see. This would be like me going to see a play written in a dialect that I could barely understand, and saying I thought the script was boring; the audience were laughing when no joke had actually been made.

As I say, I do have the opportunity to see professional American Football, ice-hockey and (I think) basketball. I probably will go to see the first two some time, but I haven’t got round to it yet, whereas I try to see as much live football and rugby as I have time and money for. For me, one of the things I like most about football are the noise of the crowd and the paucity of goals; if you don’t know whether your team will score any goals, it feels orgasmic when they actually do (witness the Japanese and Korean fans). With higher scoring sports you only get that if the lead changes unexpectedly near the end of the game. I also don’t like sports that have too many substitutions and breaks.

In my 4th paragraph, for “speculatively” please read “professionally”.

My question: why isnt there a “French Football” or “German Football”? How come they didnt develop their own team games as well?

Public Schools? Industrial workers ? A combination?

Beeblebrox Assoc. football isn’t “primeval”; it is as far removed from the original form of the game as any other modern version. What you’re talking about is the type of game still played in some British towns on special days; the goals are landmarks several miles apart and thousands of players try to wrestle the ball to one of these and thereby claim victory for their team. Association football evolved out of this along with codes from Rugby, Eton, Harrow, Princeton etc. I think “soccer” was Winchester football but this may be BS.

Something to bear in mind is that whatever the game played in 1869 was, “soccer” at that time bore little resemblance to what it became later. In fact, I’ve read that to us it would look more like rugby! American football has so little in common with “soccer”, that if you took away the rugby elements, you’d be left with nothing.

nicky there was a programme on the history of rugby in Britain a few years ago; it said that after the humiliation of the 1870 Prussian war, the French government looked for ways to make the officer class stronger. They decided to import rugby into their universities, and from there rugby became popular with working class people, especially in the south-west. But I’ve no idea why there wasn’t already some French tem game being played.

smiling bandit and Beeblebrox:
If you took the trouble to read my post instead of firing off shots you would’ve seen that I wrote it carefully to contradict the arguments Vinnie raised as Devil’s Advocate.

Nowhere did I say or imply that baseball or basketball or football can’t be played informally. I don’t believe they’d be popular in North America either if they couldn’t be played informally. I’ve played baseball and cricket in the street myself, so I know you don’t need a big area to play them - I never said otherwise. Vinnie said you need a stadium to play soccer. I said you don’t. I didn’t say you need a stadium to play other sports - see the difference? Nor did I say you need to be big to play basketball or football - I pointed out to Vinnie that nicky had said it helps. Your criticism of my post is based on your inference not what I wrote.

As far as hockey is concerned, and try to pay attention this time, you need ice to play it right? Most of the world doesn’t have ice on the ground, therefore most of the world doesn’t play hockey. They play other sports that don’t need ice, such as (but not exclusively) soccer. Get it?

I think that if American cultural influence had expanded in parallel to the C19[sup]th[/sup] European expansion instead of afterwards I’m sure we would be seeing much less of a gap between the presence of the “British” sports and the “American” ones. Clearly there are many factors in favour of American sports, but if we compare your big four with soccer I think soccer has the edge in most cases:

  1. Hockey. I hope everybody apart from smiling bandit can already see why this sport hasn’t spread globally.

  2. Baseball. Lots of potential for further spread, but it’s not convenient to play in the snow or rain. Soccer can be played at least part of the year from Iceland to Patagonia.

  3. (American) Football. A rugby-like sport as we’ve heard, but that sport was exported at the same time as soccer by the same people with much less success. I don’t entirely buy the social class argument against the spread of rugby either - Rugby League isn’t a toff’s game and I don’t see Australia rushing to mimic the British Upper Class in other respects. Whatever the reason, Australians prefer rugby, everyone else prefers soccer.

  4. Basketball. It’s gradually replacing cricket in terms of popularity in the Caribbean and there are pockets of interest in Europe, so maybe it could have been a contender? It’s been around a long time, though, and Americans have taken it wherever they’ve been, yet the world still hasn’t voted for it with their feet.

Fair enough. I didn’t read the names of the posters carefully enough and thought nicky (who said “baseball needs a lot of space”) and yourself were the same poster. My bad.

Liar.:slight_smile:

Basketball was invented by James Naismith, but he was Canadian! Observe…

The following is a part of DSYoungEsq’s excellent post in a related recent thread, "Why did ‘soccer’ not catch on in the US/Canada?’ (I’d have linked to it directly if I knew how):
"Why, then, is soccer not popular here? The reasons are two:

A) Americans had a popular pasttime already when soccer’s popularity was exploding elsewhere (namely, baseball).

B) Soccer lost to the “Rugby” philosophy, which took over American college football.

Soccer’s world-wide popularity came about mostly through the spread of the game by English mercantile and manufacturing establishments overseas during the very late 1800’s and early 1900’s. England had a large mercantile presence in several European countries, namely Italy, Spain and Portugal (surprise, surprise that these three are among the five or six best countries consistently in Europe). It also had a lot of business in Argentina and Brazil (hmmm, do we see a trend here), not to mention Uruguay (winners of two World Cups themselves). And, of course, it had lots of connections in various parts of Africa. At the time of the spread in popularity, these countries didn’t have their own “national” sports. The working class in these countries readily adopted the sport, largely because of its simplicity and lack of expensive necessary equipment.

America, of course, didn’t have a large English mercantile establishment here in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Further, America had baseball, which experienced its own growth over virtually the same years as the growth of soccer in England and, later, the “world.” By 1901, we had two major leagues and several minor leagues of baseball. Baseball ate up our desire for a past time. Similar results occurred in Canada (hockey, Canadian football, and (gulp) curling), Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Cuba, etc. where baseball is king, Australasia (Aussie rules football, among other things), the Indian subcontinent (which adopted cricket from the English upper class that ruled it, but not soccer from the English middle and lower class that avoided the area when possible).

And still, soccer might have caught on here, if it wasn’t for the fact that the American colleges opted to go much the same route as “Oxbridge,” adopting the more physical version of football pioneered at Rugby School in England. Soccer was widely played in the US in the late 1800’s, and even as late as the 1930’s it was popular and we were relatively good at it (we were semifinalists at the first World Cup in 1930). But the Ivy League and, following their footsteps, the other well-known colleges chose to promote the version of the game where you could grab an opposing player and force them to give up the ball. By the time of WWII, American football was immensly popular in its collegiate form, so much so that it ended up being used as a tourism draw (bowl games). The fan base had built up through a generation of indoctrination at the “local” level.

Thus, we already had one national sport occupying our time during spring and summer, and we chose a different version of football to occupy our fall, mostly because we preferred to imitate the “highbrow” English colleges rather than the “lowbrow” working class. By the time the World Cup had helped establish the tremendous popularity of soccer in Europe and Latin America, we had no need of it in America.

There is one other factor that, in my humble opinion, plays into the lack of soccer as a national sport here: climate. In most of the parts of Europe where soccer became immensly popular, the winter climate allows the game to be played all winter long. In most of the highly populated areas of America (early 1900 demographics), winter prevents the playing of soccer because of cold and snow, and summer makes playing the sport difficult because of heat and humidity (which is why baseball is such a lazy sport most of the time). Now, of course, as soccer in such places as Russia and Nigeria shows, you can overcome these problems, but usually only because you have nothing else to fill the gap. "

I’m afraid this simply isn’t true. Both Eton, Charterhouse and Winchester (Owl’s Old school) claim to have invented football, and indeed both Winchester and Eton lay claim to have coined the slang term “soccer”. Both still play to this day and Old Etonians have won the FA cup.

Winchester Football is still played and is almost pythonesque in complexity of rules, it has similarities with other very old forms of football.

More info from the college website:

Winchester College Football

Winchester Football is unique to the school. It is played with a soccer ball but it includes a rugby-like scrum. The game is played in the Spring Term between January and March. The new boys are taught the rules by senior boys on Wednesday afternoons.

There are house competitions on Palmer Field. At a senior level, the school divides into three groups: College, Old Tutors’ Houses and Commoners. College play in blue and white hoops, O.T.H in brown and white, and Commoners in red and white.

The big games, XVs in February and VIs in March, attract fervent support. No travelling is necessary, and there is no need to match the standards of other schools. The game can be played in muddy conditions, or in dry. No great hand-eye coordination is required.

The game takes relatively little time: the house games are twenty minutes each way, and the big games thirty minutes each way. The object of the game is to kick the ball over your opponents’ goal line.
That should make things clearer!

Also baseball was played professionally in England in the 19th Century. Derby County’s old ground wasn’t called “The Baseball Ground” by accident! It never really took off.

Most of the points in your (or DSYoungEsq’s) post are well made, but I should add something about football in the Indian subcontinent. In Bangladesh, football (soccer) is a much more popular sport than cricket - it’s the only part of the South Asian group that hasn’t yet made an impact in international cricket. Soccer is very popular in West Bengal and Goa too. British Asians from those parts of India even play in Asian football leagues here and are a great untapped resource of players. Since Goa is a former Portuguese colony that’s easy to explain, but I’ve yet to track down why football should have become so popular in East India when cricket dominates elsewhere.

All you need for IceHockey is a frozen pond, some sticks and a puck.

Field Hockey is for girls.

Yes, but for a group of people just to enjoy the game requires nothing more than a ball. When I was young we generally used trees for goalposts. In the absence of trees we woudl use items of clothing, school bags, anythign we could get our hands on. After that you just need a ball and you can have a competitive game that includes all the skills and rules of the full game.

The size of pitch depends on the amount of players per side. Put 4 or 5 on a side and you hardly need any room at all. Then there are variations on the game, for example “3 and in” (first person to score three goals becoems the goalkeeper and then you restart) and “headers and volleys” (you can only score a goal with a header or a volley. Score and it is one point to the outfield players, score by an incorrect manner and it is a point to the goalkeeper, although there are MANY variations of this each with their own ruleset) that require just one goal, hence cutting down the required space.

It really is hard to argue against the beauty of football being the lack of necessary equipment or space. When you have played as a kid, with two or three friends, just kicking a can around and yet somehow still having a competitive game, involving the entire ruleset, then you will understand.

Why do ESPN commentators and people here lament the disparity in soccer participation between the US and the rest of the world? Spectator revenue takes time–the NBA didn’t have its finals shown live until the 80s–but soccer is already the most popular participatory sport in this country.

http://www.tpgsports.com/soccer/edit_mission.htm :

You don’t think you can do that with baseball? Grab 4 bags or rocks for bases (in grade school, the big tree in the middle of the field was second base), grab a stick and a rock. Some friends and I once got a nice game going with a stick and a can we found. And that was only about 6 years ago. You can also play “over the line” or “three flies up” if you only have a few people.

It is really hard to argue against the beauty of baseball being the lack of necessary equipment or space. When you have played as a kid, with two or three friends, just knocking a can around and yet somehow still having a competitive game, involving the entire ruleset, then you will understand.

And don’t get me started on playing football with four friends and some sort of object to throw around. If we didn’t have a field and only had the street, we’d just play touch.

I think that if baseball, basketball or whatnot had been popular in countries prior to the introduction to football, football doesn’t take off there. It’s not a knock against football. If football had been really popular in the US before the introduction of those sports, then it is king here and the others fall by the wayside. But the fact is that even during colonial times, people were playing rounders and townball, the ancestors of baseball, pretty frequently. The college campuses adopted the rugby version of football which turned into american football. Basketball was created a need for a winter sport that could be played indoors. And ice hockey was there for winter outdoors. Football just wouldn’t fill any niches.

Actually I never said anything like that. I was just replying to the accusation that “A soccer field is larger then (sic) a football field.”

Ah, but what I REALLY liked about football was/is:

  1. Everybody is fully active at all times. No teams sitting out a la baseball. We also played cricket the way you described baseball being played, but waiting to bat isn’t quite as fun as being constantly involved in a sport which doesn’t involve much standing around. Of course thos ewaiting to bat coudl hang out in the outfield, but that kind of ruins the team dynamic.

  2. Touch football? Bah - like the touch rugby I played. Never the same as the real thing. Wherever you play with whatever you play, with football we could play as if we were at wembley.

Problem is, all these sports did exist before soccer became ‘major league.’ American football evolved from rugby (as has been eloquently detailed on this thread), and baseball from rounders. Field hockey has been played here at least as long as soccer, at least going on C18 and C19 literature, and although basketball has never really caught on here, we do have netball. I’ll see if I can come back with some cites in a bit.

One of the reasons soccer hasn’t caught on in the US is that for a long time it has been a ‘girls’ game (which always amused me, as it was the opposite over here). Girls’ games never has the prestige or funding that boys’ games do.

I agree with Everton and others on the convenience of football over most other sports. Baseball is just as convenient, but like **** says, it does leave half the players on the sidelines for half the time.

Could American Football have evolved before association football? It seems to me to depend greatly on stopwatches to account for injury times. That wouldn’t work before the development of reliable, transportable timepieces. Perhaps that’s just in major league games, but even if timepieces are only nevessary for those games, that hinders its popular development.