# Would South Korea exist without help from UN? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036 "2013-01-22T20:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qwertol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Qwertol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertol)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/1 "2013-01-22T20:25:15Z")
Would South Korea exist today if there was no intervention from United Nations (and US and UK)? BTW. How come UN was involved in Korea but not in Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/2 "2013-01-22T20:29:19Z")
Nope. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/3 "2013-01-22T20:32:28Z")
Well, I suppose it depends…would the US have still gotten involved? If so, then I suppose it’s possible that the south could have withstood the initial invasion much as they did and things would have played out in a similar way. Without US intervention though? Not a chance. It was too sudden, to overwhelming, and the political stability for the south just wasn’t there. Plus, the South Korean capital is in a really bad spot in a conflict with the North. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/4 "2013-01-22T20:38:17Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW. How come UN was involved in Korea but not in Vietnam? IIRC, the Soviets didn’t vote for some reason (not sure why off the top of my head…something about the Soviets storming out of a UN session and so not voting on the resolution, though might be misremembering), while in Vietnam they definitely blocked UN participation in Vietnam directly. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/5 "2013-01-22T20:38:52Z")
> [@Qwertol](#): > > BTW. How come UN was involved in Korea but not in Vietnam? Because the USSR learned their lesson about boycotting Security Council meetings. edit: **XT** - China wasn’t a member and the USSR boycotted because the UN seated Taiwan as “China.” Without the Soviet veto, the UN could take military action to support South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/6 "2013-01-22T20:47:50Z")
It should be noted that South Korea almost didn’t exist _even with_ the help of the UN-- those first few months of war went very poorly indeed for the South, the U.S. and their allies. Today, in 2013? South Korea could take care of itself, and then some, against North Korea, albeit not without great cost. That said, the U.S. forces located in South Korea still act as a convenient tripwire to engage the U.S. in any conflict from day one, for good or ill. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/7 "2013-01-22T20:50:20Z")
If SK doesn’t get support from the US, then we should also stipulate that NK doesn’t get support from China. What then? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/8 "2013-01-22T21:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] edit: XT - China wasn’t a member and the USSR boycotted because the UN seated Taiwan as “China.” Without the Soviet veto, the UN could take military action to support South Korea [/QUOTE] Yeah, I corrected that on edit when I thought about what I wrote earlier. I couldn’t remember why the Soviets had boycotted, but that makes sense that it would have been because of Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/9 "2013-01-22T21:37:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If SK doesn’t get support from the US, then we should also stipulate that NK doesn’t get support from China. What then? Why should this be stipulated? In any event, nothing different happens; China only intervened when the UN was closing on its border which wouldn’t have happened if the UN hadn’t become involved. South Korea would have fallen to the North and there would be no offensive headed towards the Yalu. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/10 "2013-01-22T22:19:36Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > It should be noted that South Korea almost didn’t exist _even with_ the help of the UN-- those first few months of war went very poorly indeed for the South, the U.S. and their allies. > > Today, in 2013? South Korea could take care of itself, and then some, against North Korea, albeit not without great cost. > > That said, the U.S. forces located in South Korea still act as a convenient tripwire to engage the U.S. in any conflict from day one, for good or ill. ISTM the thing to do now is pull all troops, U.S. and SK, back from the DMZ and tear up the fencing on the SK side of it. Say to Kim Jong Un, “We’re not even going to bother to defend this border any more. Of course, if you send your troops across, it’s still war – do you believe for a moment that you, personally, could survive that war? Can you even risk letting your troops see how South Koreans live? _yawn_” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/11 "2013-01-22T22:30:20Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Why should this be stipulated? In any event, nothing different happens; China only intervened when the UN was closing on its border which wouldn’t have happened if the UN hadn’t become involved. South Korea would have fallen to the North and there would be no offensive headed towards the Yalu. Of course we don’t have to, but it seems rather lopsided to say SK wouldn’t exist without it’s big brother but ignore the big brother(s) of NK. I don’t know very much about the war, but according to wikipedia your view is not the only one: > [@](#): > > In the first half of 1950, Kim Il-sung travelled to Moscow and Beijing to secure support in a war with the South. The Soviet military became extensively involved in North Korea’s war planning.[69][70][71][72] There are differing accounts of the degree of Soviet support, ranging from support if the North was attacked,[73], to approval,[74][75] to actually initiating the war.[70] Similarly, some accounts indicate that Chinese support was stronger than Soviet support[76], and some say it was reluctant.[72] ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/12 "2013-01-22T22:30:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > ISTM the thing to do now is pull all troops, U.S. and SK, back from the DMZ and tear up the fencing on the SK side of it. Say to Kim Jong Un, “We’re not even going to bother to defend this border any more. Of course, if you send your troops across, it’s still war – do you believe for a moment that you, personally, could survive that war? Can you even risk letting your troops see how South Koreans live? _yawn_” That’s an incredibly bad idea, considering that the North is constantly trying to send across infiltrators and assassins and those defenses are part of the reason why more incidents don’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/13 "2013-01-22T22:31:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If SK doesn’t get support from the US, then we should also stipulate that NK doesn’t get support from China. What then? I also don’t see why we’d stipulate that. Declassified ex-Soviet archives clearly show that the USSR and PRC decided to help Kim Il Sung with his idea to reunify Korea by force based on the assumption the US wouldn’t or couldn’t effectively intervene. IOW their support wasn’t based on US intervention, but the assuming the opposite. And the NK’s almost overran SK in the early days and weeks of the war (even _after_ the US/UN intervened, as was noted) without direct involvement by the Chinese or Soviets\*. The PLA entered the war in late October 1950 after the NK army had been defeated in the south and only remnants of if remained between the UN armies and the Chinese border, and shortly after the Soviet AF entered combat (when MiG-15’s first appeared over Korea in November 1950, all were from regular Soviet AF units). \*though the PRC as well as USSR supported the NK’s other ways pre war. Almost all NK weapons were from the USSR, and the PLA transferred units of ethnic Koreans to the Korean Peoples Army (aka NK army) prior to the war, which became the nucleus of a few of the NK divisions (but most of those men were actually Korean born, had gone to Manchuria during the Japanese occupation, become Communists and joined the PLA). ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/14 "2013-01-23T04:05:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If SK doesn’t get support from the US, then we should also stipulate that NK doesn’t get support from China. What then? The initial North Korean invasion (without, AFAIK, any large numbers of Chinese troops at that point) pushed the South and UN forces all the way back to the [Pusan Perimeter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kw_attack2.JPG), which is that little pale green corner down in the extreme southeast of the peninsula. (Looks like the South also held on to [Jeju island](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_Province).) That’s _without_ major Chinese involvement, but with outside (UN, mostly US) support for the South. I think it’s a pretty safe bet that without outside intervention, the North would have overrun the South entirely. With UN assistance, the Allies (mostly US–and South Korea, of course–but a bunch of countries contributed to the UN war effort) were able to break out of the Pusan Perimeter, with [an amphibious assault at Inchon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Inchon), far to the north of the Pusan Perimeter. The North was [almost totally overrun](http://history.howstuffworks.com/korean-war/korean-war3.htm)–_then_, with the American-led forces right at their border, the Chinese intervened, the Allies [were pushed way back down the peninsula](http://history.howstuffworks.com/korean-war/korean-war4.htm) (losing Seoul again) before they were finally able to counterattack, push the frontline basically to where the modern border (the DMZ) is, which is [not really all that different from the pre-war line of demarcation at the 38th parallel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Korea_DMZ.svg). Then [the war ground on for a couple more years without any more major territorial changes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Stalemate_.28July_1951_.E2.80.93_July_1953.29) before the armistice. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-south-korea-exist-without-help-from-un/648036/15 "2013-01-23T05:17:49Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > The initial North Korean invasion (without, AFAIK, any large numbers of Chinese troops at that point) pushed the South and UN forces all the way back to the [Pusan Perimeter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kw_attack2.JPG), which is that little pale green corner down in the extreme southeast of the peninsula. The only thing I’d add to your post is that it was without _any_ Chinese troops; the Chinese only became involved when the UN was racing towards the Yalu. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know very much about the war, but according to wikipedia your view is not the only one: It’s not my view, it is a fact. Assuming support to mean military intervention which is what the OP was asking, China would have no need to intervene if the UN hadn’t; South Korea would have fallen without UN intervention. Assuming support to more loosely mean political and material support as has been noted most of the support of that sort came from the USSR before the war, not China. China was itself dependant on the USSR in that regard and had just finished their civil war. The USSR had mountains of surplus arms left over from WW2, which is where the DPRK got all of the T-34/85s, Yak-9s and artillery from with which they invaded the South.