# Would Texas ever separate from America?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 30, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324 "2011-04-30T22:58:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/101 "2011-05-03T18:24:54Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#):
>
> As a Californian, I don’t know that I’d be altogether opposed to seceding and becoming our own nation. Think of the revenue we could make by charging the rest of the U.S. exorbitant prices for the fruits of the entertainment and tech industries you can’t live without.
So California should nationalize the movie industry? I can’t wait to see the first movie approved by the Central Committee.
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### Author:  [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/102 "2011-05-03T19:09:57Z")
> [@RedSwinglineOne](#):
>
> That, and the fact that the conservative led Texas Board of Education is kind of a joke?
I’m always glad to publicize the [Texas Freedom Network](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=TFN_homepage). So forward thinking Texans can contribute. And people from elsewhere can realize that Not All Texans Are Like That.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/103 "2011-05-03T19:10:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Finally, do you think it just might be possible that a big portion of the reason that Texas scores low on Education and Social Welfare might be the fact that the state has a massive population of non-English speaking hispanics (with a Mexican border almost nine times the length of California’s) and the largest rural population in the country?
How do you get that Texas has the largest rural population in the country? Texas is 14% rural, while Montana, say, is 65% rural, and Wyoming is 70%.
And comparison between the murder rates in Texas and DC is misleading. Of course DC has a higher murder rate; it has a higher population density.
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### Author:  [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/104 "2011-05-03T19:17:17Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#):
>
> So California should nationalize the movie industry? I can’t wait to see the first movie approved by the Central Committee.
No need to nationalize. Just slap a tax on export/distribution. But as I said, I wasn’t really serious. Just pointing out that “Get rid of California” would have repercussions on quality of life.
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### Author:  [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/105 "2011-05-03T19:34:40Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#):
>
> I’m always glad to publicize the [Texas Freedom Network](http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer?pagename=TFN_homepage). So forward thinking Texans can contribute. And people from elsewhere can realize that Not All Texans Are Like That.
Why are so many of your elected officials LIKE THAT?
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/106 "2011-05-03T19:39:33Z")
> [@RedSwinglineOne](#):
>
> That, and the fact that the conservative led Texas Board of Education is kind of a joke?
That sort of remind me of the Bum Phillips quote about Bear Bryant: “He can take his’n and beat your’n and take your’n and beat his’n.”
As bad as you might think the Texas Board of Education is (and I’m not going to try to defend them), do you really think any other state could do much better with the same demographics? I mean, are the Vermont or New Hampshire education boards so good that they could pull a Bear Bryant and come to Texas and move Texas to the top of the rankings?
I kind of think Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine etc. have an easier job of educating a population that is 95% white English speaking then Texas that is 45%.
The Education Board of Texas is obviously over the entire state; the affluent neighborhoods with involved parents do exceptionally well. I think that is the biggest difference maker in state rankings.
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/107 "2011-05-03T19:54:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> How do you get that Texas has the largest rural population in the country? Texas is 14% rural, while Montana, say, is 65% rural, and Wyoming is 70%.
It’s a simple fact that Texas has the largest rural population. I didn’t say they have the highest percentage of the population as rural. In raw numbers Texas has the highest rural population. Texas probably has 20 times the number of rural people as Wyoming has in total population.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> And comparison between the murder rates in Texas and DC is misleading. Of course DC has a higher murder rate; it has a higher population density.
It isn’t misleading at all. Naxos implied you were highly likely to get shot in Texas. Aren’t you more likely to get shot in D.C. regardless of the reason why? Furthermore, the main point of my response was that Texas is actually middle of the road for gun violence.
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### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/108 "2011-05-03T19:55:17Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#):
>
> I kind of think Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine etc. have an easier job of educating a population that is 95% white English speaking then Texas that is 45%.
Methinks you protest race too much.
[Figures](http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/) on education spending in Texas.
As of 2005 (yes, this is old, I know), Texas wasn’t even in the top 25 states in per student spending and was near the bottom of the barrel in terms of dollars the state kicked in (but pretty high in terms of federal and local dollars spent) and is pretty low in terms of teacher salaries.
Vermont? Maine? New Hampshire? They’re all top 15 states in terms of per student spending. Texas is in the bottom 20 and probably the bottom 15. Maybe Texas is just that much more efficient at educating its students than other states, but I somehow doubt it. Even California, which has a larger student population, spends more per student.
Sure, they have an easier time educating their students - they spend the money to do so. You don’t even have to appeal to race to see where other differences might apply. In fact, many of the lowest spending states per student are in the South and correlate with low academic achievement. Maybe correlation doesn’t imply causation, but that’s a heck of a correlation.
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/109 "2011-05-03T20:04:57Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> Just to play devil’s advocate, the Texas state legislature has a current super-majority of 101 (out of 150) House Republicans, which is massively up from the slight majority of 76 Republican members in the 81st House. It also means that the Democrats can’t just leave the state to hold up business.
>
> Some of that is part of the strong national Tea Party showing in 2010, but it does show there is still a strong conservative base in the state.
>
> Also, the shift to a majority Republican Texas came recently, meaning the comparisons of Governors and Lieutenant Governors (good luck getting elected as a Republican in 1900) are not apt. Heck, more than half the Republican governors are from the last 30 years (Bill Clements, George W Bush, and Rich Perry) and there hasn’t been a Democrat as Governor or Lieutenant Governor in over a decade.
>
> Even Rick Perry started his career as a Democrat and switched parties. That’s been the trend. Many of the Texas Democrats of the 80s are now Republicans.
I don’t disagree that Republicans are currently the dominant party in Texas. However, if a person were to state that Texas is essentially iredeemably screwed up and that the U.S. would be improved by simply eliminating it as dead waste, and that this is all due to the fact that everyone in that state is a Republican then don’t you think it is worth responding that the majority of its history was actually dominated by Democrats and that the Democrats actually still have a stronghold in all major metropolitan areas of the state?
Was Texas a paradise on Earth until 1995 and now is a complete hell hole?
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/110 "2011-05-03T20:29:09Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> Methinks you protest race too much.
>
> [Figures](http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/) on education spending in Texas.
>
> As of 2005 (yes, this is old, I know), Texas wasn’t even in the top 25 states in per student spending and was near the bottom of the barrel in terms of dollars the state kicked in (but pretty high in terms of federal and local dollars spent) and is pretty low in terms of teacher salaries.
>
> Vermont? Maine? New Hampshire? They’re all top 15 states in terms of per student spending. Texas is in the bottom 20 and probably the bottom 15. Maybe Texas is just that much more efficient at educating its students than other states, but I somehow doubt it. Even California, which has a larger student population, spends more per student.
>
> Sure, they have an easier time educating their students - they spend the money to do so. You don’t even have to appeal to race to see where other differences might apply. In fact, many of the lowest spending states per student are in the South and correlate with low academic achievement. Maybe correlation doesn’t imply causation, but that’s a heck of a correlation.
I really don’t think think it has anything to do with race specifically. I think it has to do with language and parental involvement. I think that the average non-hispanic white person is more involved in their child’s education than the average hispanic or black person for reason’s completely unrelated to race.
Also, there are obviously many ways at looking at education spending. The [Census Bureau](http://www.deseretnews.com/photos/midres/web-153470.jpg) says that Texas spends the 3rd highest percentage of its budget on education. Did California efficiently spend money on education when they built a [half billion dollar school with talking benches](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/22/robert-f-kennedy-communit_n_690497.html#s129588&title=Robert_F_Kennedy)? Did education in the U.S. get better when George Bush increased the Department of Education budget by 33%?
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/111 "2011-05-03T20:38:24Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> and is pretty low in terms of teacher salaries.
Who is better off financially, a starting teacher in Texas making an average of $33,775 a year in one of the lowest cost of living states or a starting teacher in California making $35,760 a year in one of the highest cost of living states?
Also, I wouldn’t call [29th](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/ranks/rank20.xls) pretty low, I would call it middle of the pack.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/112 "2011-05-03T21:01:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> Except when he is [sucking Obama’s federal cock](http://www.texasinsider.org/?p=45832) for that sweet, sweet FEMA spooge.
I love when the other side’s maturity level is embarrassing enough that it eliminates any need to even address the argument on its merits.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/113 "2011-05-03T21:07:39Z")
Quoth **Longhorn Dave** :
> [@](#):
>
> It’s a simple fact that Texas has the largest rural population. I didn’t say they have the highest percentage of the population as rural. In raw numbers Texas has the highest rural population. Texas probably has 20 times the number of rural people as Wyoming has in total population.
That’d surely be relevant when discussing the absolute number of illiterates in Texas, but how is it at all relevant to the illiteracy _rate_?
Oh, and when considering the political leanings of a state, it’s not too useful to look at the parties of local politicians, since the political parties of different states mean different things. A typical Texas Democrat might well be more conservative than a typical California Republican. What’s more useful is to compare votes in presidential elections, and to a lesser extent federal senators and representatives, since then you’re comparing apples to apples.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/114 "2011-05-03T21:26:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Quoth **Longhorn Dave** :That’d surely be relevant when discussing the absolute number of illiterates in Texas, but how is it at all relevant to the illiteracy _rate_?
>
> Oh, and when considering the political leanings of a state, it’s not too useful to look at the parties of local politicians, since the political parties of different states mean different things. A typical Texas Democrat might well be more conservative than a typical California Republican. What’s more useful is to compare votes in presidential elections, and to a lesser extent federal senators and representatives, since then you’re comparing apples to apples.
Something like 40%+ of Texans voted for Obama.
(Actually 44%)
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### Author:  [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/115 "2011-05-03T21:48:26Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#):
>
> As bad as you might think the Texas Board of Education is (and I’m not going to try to defend them)…
>
> I kind of think Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine etc. have an easier job of educating a population that is 95% white English speaking then Texas that is 45%.
I’m not going to pretend to know what challenges Texas must face in educating its particular student demographic, but I doubt they have given it any thought. The Texas Board of Education has demonstrated that if they had their way, all Texas students would graduate believing the earth is 6000 years old, and Adam and Eve rode dinasaurs.
Good luck competing in the real world Texas class of 2025.
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### Author:  [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/116 "2011-05-03T22:28:48Z")
I just thought of something. If we build that wall along the Mexican border, we’ll finally have a wall long enough to line up all the Texans who need shooting against it! Not in one volley, of course. Win win! 😛
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### Author:  [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/117 "2011-05-03T22:31:50Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#):
>
> I don’t disagree that Republicans are currently the dominant party in Texas. However, if a person were to state that Texas is essentially iredeemably screwed up and that the U.S. would be improved by simply eliminating it as dead waste, and that this is all due to the fact that everyone in that state is a Republican then don’t you think it is worth responding that the majority of its history was actually dominated by Democrats and that the Democrats actually still have a stronghold in all major metropolitan areas of the state?
>
> Was Texas a paradise on Earth until 1995 and now is a complete hell hole?
No, Texas has always been a hell hole and likely always will be. Spoken as a recovering Texan.
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/118 "2011-05-03T23:11:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Quoth **Longhorn Dave** :That’d surely be relevant when discussing the absolute number of illiterates in Texas, but how is it at all relevant to the illiteracy _rate_?
I wrote what I wrote in clear, no-hidden-message English. It’s not my fault that you didn’t read it correctly. In fact, you still seem to be reading something else into what I wrote. I did not say that the education quality of states are directly correlated to their per capita rural population and as such Texas is at a disadvantage being the most rural of all the states. I did say, to paraphrase, that Texas has a lot of non-English speaking Hispanics and the largest rural population of any state, which helps explain the poor rankings. To expand, since the point seems to be lost on you, Texas has challenges that other states don’t have. They have large urban centers, a huge spread out population with a tremendous number of rural people, and a huge and extremely fast growing population of uneducated Hispanics. Every state has their unique circumstances and needs to be looked at on its own with its own benchmarks. Some stupid one-size fits all solution (or ranking system) is pointless.
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Oh, and when considering the political leanings of a state, it’s not too useful to look at the parties of local politicians, since the political parties of different states mean different things. A typical Texas Democrat might well be more conservative than a typical California Republican. What’s more useful is to compare votes in presidential elections, and to a lesser extent federal senators and representatives, since then you’re comparing apples to apples.
Again, you seem to have some reading comprehension problems. Would you mind pointing to the post I have made where I said anything about Texas being more conservative or liberal (two insanely stupid and meaningless terms, by the way)? If you actually read what I was responding to my post might make more sense to you. When someone is saying that the state sucks because they are all Republicans, it makes sense to point out that they are not all Republicans. Trying to make some relative comparison of “liberalness” or “conservatism” of various political parties from one state to another would be off topic. It simply doesn’t matter if Bob Bullock (R.I.P.) is more “conservative” than Arnold Schwarzenegger; the Republican label was what was being discussed.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/119 "2011-05-03T23:22:09Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#):
>
> Secession is simply illegal. No amount of talk can change that, no technically, no secret agreement, nothing. Texas trying to leave the Union without Congressional approval would lead to war. It would be a war Texas would lose.
Cite in US Constitution or US Code?
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### Author:  [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-texas-ever-separate-from-america/580324/120 "2011-05-03T23:23:19Z")
> [@LouisB](#):
>
> No, Texas has always been a hell hole and likely always will be. Spoken as a recovering Texan.
Speaking on behalf of the state with the largest population growth and 5th highest growth rate in this last Census, would you mind convincing your fellow Americans of how terrible Texas is?
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