# Would the English be mad if the Indianapolis Indians became the Englishmen? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803 "2003-07-02T16:46:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/1 "2003-07-02T16:46:42Z")
In the Indianapolis Star this morning, [http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054859-4803-036.html](http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/054859-4803-036.html) there’s a story about some Native Americans’ discomfort over the team name of the Indianapolis minor league baseball team. By the way, the Tribe is a farm team for the Milwaukee Brewers, but in the past, they were affiliated with the Cincinnati Reds, and before that, the Montreal Expos. So, I thought, what if a ball team were named after my ancestors? Would I be angry? I don’t think so. My people, a long time ago, were English. Would it bother the folk who are still British? That’s my question; If a baseball team in Indiana changed their name to the Indianapolis Englishmen (or Brits, or Limeys,) would the British get their hackles up?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/2 "2003-07-02T18:09:04Z")
A baseball team calling themselves The Englishmen? No! Now a cricket or rugby team, that I could understand. In answer to your question–I don’t think anyone would really care, especially in England. It would be a “silly season” story in the newspapers, then the story would die a quick death. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/3 "2003-07-02T18:25:28Z")
Why dont they call themselves the Indianapolis Frenchies! the French wont like but WHO CARES?! 😃 just kidding… ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/4 "2003-07-02T19:01:20Z")
yes, IF: A group of Sioux had landed in England several hundred years ago with superior weaponry and a plan to take all the gold, proceeded to spread disease, desecrate holy places, relegate the english to second class citizens, and placed them on reservations, lied to them, etc. for generations… then yes, some english would find it offensive. Probably not all, but some uppity ones would. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/5 "2003-07-02T19:06:40Z")
How about [thick Australian Accent]The Indianapolis Bloody Poms?[/tAa] ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/6 "2003-07-02T19:10:37Z")
Would we have to change the name of the city to Englishopolis? ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/7 "2003-07-02T20:42:41Z")
To really screw with the PC police, the Indians management ought to change the mascout to a guy in a turban instead of a headdress. I haven’t heard of the Bombay lobby getting in on this, yet… ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/8 "2003-07-02T20:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by greck \* > \*\*yes, IF: > > A group of Sioux had landed in England several hundred years ago with superior weaponry and a plan to take all the gold, proceeded to spread disease, desecrate holy places, relegate the english to second class citizens, and placed them on reservations, lied to them, etc. for generations… > then yes, some english would find it offensive. Probably not all, but some uppity ones would. \*\* Yeah, that would suck. Good thing that only the Romans, Vikings, and French did it. That’s much, much better. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/9 "2003-07-02T21:11:02Z")
How about the [Cleveland Christians](http://www.derfcity.com/o/wahoochrist.html)? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/10 "2003-07-02T21:16:54Z")
Hey thats an idea! Why dont they name it after a group of people that have already died out and have no one to complain about using their names? lessee The Indianapolis Neanderthals has a nice ring to it… how about The Indianapolis Austrolopithicuses… hmmm hows that spelled… or The Indianapolis democratic candidates! wait theres always 2008… maybe the The Indianapolis Philistines. When they throw a long bomb, no one will want to catch it. o wait is this baseball…? ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/11 "2003-07-02T21:42:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tjblack \* > \*\*Yeah, that would suck. Good thing that only the Romans, Vikings, and French did it. That’s much, much better. \*\* I didn’t realize that the Vikings were still occupying England, my bad. other question: Are there any pro sports teams mascots in the UK called “Irish” or “scottish?” “Welsh?” ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/12 "2003-07-02T21:44:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Why dont they call themselves the Indianapolis Frenchies! > > the French wont like but WHO CARES?! > > 😃 > > just kidding… \*\* Actually, the spicy fried potatos at Victory Field have been called Tribe Fries since long before the “Freedom Fries” ruckus.😛 ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/13 "2003-07-03T00:13:57Z")
**Duke** has effectively answered the OP – nobody in the UK could care less what you call your sports teams. But after that, several posts have made presumably well-intentioned, but nevertheless ham-fisted attempts to connect the relationship between Native Americans and the European settlers/their descendents to the complex ethnology of the UK. Unfortunately, no such analogy can be drawn – at least not the way you’ve tried to describe it. Nobody in the UK self-identifies as Roman, Viking or Norman French and the invasions/occupations of those groups took place between one and two thousand years ago, so any wounds that were opened by conflict between them have had plenty of time to heal. That’s hardly the case between Native and other Americans is it? Consequently, although I’m not aware of any sports teams here called the Romans or the Vikings, if there were they wouldn’t cause any eyebrows to rise. In fact they do feature in the marketing of relevant tourist sites (Legionaries at Hadrian’s Wall, Vikings at the Jorvik Centre in York etc, etc). Also, there _are_ rugby teams called London Irish, London Welsh and London Scottish that were founded by people born in those places but living in the capital. I suppose the closest comparison might be the Boston Celtics? In any case, nobody thinks they represent anything sinister or patronising. There are no sports mascots called Irish, Welsh or Scottish anything because people who live there don’t need mascots to remind them of the fact, and English people wouldn’t be interested in appropriating emblems of those places for English mascots. We’re not big on mascots anyhow by the way. If you wanted to, you _could_ draw an analogy similar to the one described here though. If you called a sports team in Wales after Edward I, or one in Scotland commemorating the Highland Clearances you would be digging a very deep hole for yourself. Maybe worst of all would be starting a team in Northern Ireland called the Englishmen, giving them orange uniforms to wear and a mascot called Billy the Brit. Let’s just say that would be a _really_ bad idea. Similarly, there are no sports teams here named in memory of the numerous peoples around the world we dominated during the Imperial period. It’s probably none of my business, but it seems to me that if Native Americans feel offended by sports teams being called the Indianapolis Indians, Washington Redskins or whatever it seems pretty stupid not to realise why that might be the case and to cry Political Correctness when somebody suggests a more tactful alternative. Just my two penn’orth. **vunderbob** – there’s no such place as Bombay any more; they renamed it Mumbai ---
**Author:** ![bradministrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bradministrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradministrator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/14 "2003-07-03T01:27:18Z")
I’m an American of Scandanavian descent, and it doesn’t bother me that a historically black college, Elizabeth City State U, plays under the name “Vikings.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/15 "2003-07-03T11:15:46Z")
While we’re on the subject, when was the last time you saw a tiger in detroit? Or a lion? Or a “warrior” in California? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/16 "2003-07-03T14:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dutchboy208 \* > \*\*While we’re on the subject, when was the last time you saw a tiger in detroit? Or a lion? Or a “warrior” in California? \*\* Never been to Detroit. But I can tell you that Tampa Bay is lousy with pirates. ---
**Author:** ![JimSox5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5a626/32.png) [@JimSox5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimSox5)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/17 "2003-07-04T03:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vunderbob \* > \*\*To really screw with the PC police, the Indians management ought to change the mascout to a guy in a turban instead of a headdress. I haven’t heard of the Bombay lobby getting in on this, yet… \*\* Of course, the Indians mascot is a bright red bear named Rowdie. Point is well taken, though. ---
**Author:** ![IUHomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@IUHomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IUHomer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/18 "2003-07-04T05:59:09Z")
If you were to change the name of the team for political correctness, you should really change the name of the city and state also since they include the word “Indian.” They would become the “Native Americanoplis Native Americans”, NANAs for short maybe. The state would be Native Americana (nothing could be more of a misnomer, of course), I would have graduated from Native Americana University, home of the Native Americana Hoosiers, and my sister would have graduated from the University of Native Americanapolis. ``` We have Celtics and Yankees as team names. I don't think the names themselves are bad things. The mascots can be offensive. ``` ---
**Author:** ![IUHomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@IUHomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IUHomer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/19 "2003-07-04T06:03:02Z")
Also, it may not be the team name, but whenever the Pacers and Knicks met in the playoffs the last ten years, it was often referred to on TV and in newspapers as the “Hicks vs Knicks”. I have no problem with this title, but can you imagine if, theoretically, the NBA expanded to Mexico and the headline one day became “Spics vs. Knicks?” I don’t think this would go over as well. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803/20 "2003-07-04T07:36:22Z")
I honestly don’t get the point of the uproar. The teams were named because the owners thought the name sounded tough and/or noble. No one named their major league sports team “The Weakling Dorks”. Is it supposed to be because American Indians are more than people who threw tomahawks (The Atlanta Braves) while wearing feathered headgear (The Cleveland Indians)? I guess I could see the point, but does anyone think that these teams mock Indians, or are trying to imply that there was nothing else to the culture? It strikes me that this might be one of those situations that could easily have turned around: “Hey, we’re ignored! Here we are, the native people, and we never get mentioned. I mean, you would think that someone might someday think of using our proud culture as the mascot for a sport team.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-english-be-mad-if-the-indianapolis-indians-became-the-englishmen/185803.md?page=2)