# Would the Gettysburg Address have been improved if Lincoln used emoticons? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115 "2011-01-10T17:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/1 "2011-01-10T17:35:53Z")
I started a hijack in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=592475) and was admonished to start a new one so here it is. In the above linked thread **kanicbird** said: > [@Mind Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-control/567102/12): > > One of the biggest hurts you can impose on a child and later society as that child enters the productive part of their life is to destroy their creativity. Children have wonderful ways of communicating beyond what adults do because they are not bound by our rules on language. > > As rules are imposed and enforced by threat of punishment (such as bad grades) the children lose their ability to think freely, and the wonders they could have brought into society is blocked by that wall of fear. I responded: > [@Mind Control](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-control/567102/13): > > This might be a hijack but I’d say understanding and following the rules of language aids in communication. > > Look at some of our best writers throughout history. They had a masterful command of the language and because of that were able to communicate profound ideas with wonderful clarity (read something like the Gettysburg Address for an example…stunning piece of writing). > > Internet/texting shorthand is not an aid to clear communication. I cannot imagine the Gettysburg Address would have been improved if Lincoln used emoticons. > > _“If you cannot say what you mean you cannot mean what you say.”_ (Forgot where I heard that to give proper credit) I’ll admit in one sense that I agree that the more ways one has to express themself the better. That said I think having a strong understanding of the rules of language are not a hindrance but an aid to good communication. I simply cannot imagine the Gettysburg Address or the Declaration of Independence (just to name two examples) would have been improved if they added 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/2 "2011-01-10T17:39:38Z")
**Four score and seven years ago, Our forefathers totally Pnw3d those loozr d00ds in funny red suits…** …doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/3 "2011-01-10T17:40:26Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > **Four score and seven years ago, > Our forefathers totally Pnw3d those loozr d00ds in funny red suits…** > > …doesn’t quite have the same ring to it. No but gotta admit I kinda like that too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/4 "2011-01-10T17:45:14Z")
The Gettysburg address wasn’t a piece of text, it was a speech, wasn’t it? That is, it’s a different form of communication, in which tone of voice, pauses, even the posture of the speaker communicated things which aren’t written on the page. …exactly like emoticons are intended to do. I mean, if I finish this post with this: :rolleyes:, the whole tone of the post changes. Or I could end it with :), which is more indicative of my intended tone, one of friendly engagement, not dismissiveness or perceived superiority. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/5 "2011-01-10T17:48:51Z")
Also, anyone who wishes, to hold up Abraham Lincoln, as a model, of English usage, owes it to him, or herself, to read some of his writings, many of which are available online, and see how often, he uses the comma. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/6 "2011-01-10T17:49:03Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > The Gettysburg address wasn’t a piece of text, it was a speech, wasn’t it? > > That is, it’s a different form of communication, in which tone of voice, pauses, even the posture of the speaker communicated things which aren’t written on the page. > > …exactly like emoticons are intended to do. > > I mean, if I finish this post with this: :rolleyes:, the whole tone of the post changes. Or I could end it with :), which is more indicative of my intended tone, one of friendly engagement, not dismissiveness or perceived superiority. > > 🙂 It was a speech yes but for those of us who weren’t there it is a written piece. So, you think if Lincoln included emoticons to cue us future readers on where he wanted to smile or rolleyes it’d have been better? What about the Declaration of Independence? (Or pick a favorite piece of writing…these are just examples.) ---
**Author:** ![Walmarticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Walmarticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walmarticus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/7 "2011-01-10T17:51:45Z")
＿ | | | | ＿＿＿＿ （ ´\_⊃｀） ≡ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/8 "2011-01-10T17:56:05Z")
…Tthe aasdjll ooOOOOoooOOoOOo fofffff kKkKkKk K nuNMINNinimbfmabAnab quisSHKip fee!!!vocmon ,laawef09jsdfkj 888aa lim161a ~00k~`’] awef p99GG ? @(\*JAN emmmelan Hey, it’s true! I can communicate much better now that my mind is no longer restricted by grammar. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/9 "2011-01-10T17:59:24Z")
The Gettysburg tweet (from the Daily Show): 4 scor & 7 yrs ago: nu nation, all men =! Now civil war :(. But! Not die in vain. Gr8 task b4 us:Gvt of-by4-ppl not perish frm earth! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/10 "2011-01-10T18:00:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It was a speech yes but for those of us who weren’t there it is a written piece. Are you sure? I can’t read it without that “Lincolney” voice in my head (which isn’t Lincoln, of course, but an amalgam of actors I’ve heard recite the piece over the years.) I know - or think I know - the tone of voice, the pauses, etc. that Lincoln meant to be in there. But, y’know, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe Lincoln really sounded like Gilbert Gottfried. Emoticons have their place. That place probably isn’t in high literature, no. I don’t think Wuthering Heights would be any better if Cathy threw in a few :smack:es. (Although she ought to have :smack:ed herself, of course!) But for real time (or nearly so) informal communication like this message board, yes, I certainly do think they improve communication. I’m not going to sit here and reread my post 53 times, proofreading out any ambiguities, adjusting for connotation, asking an editor to review it for clarity. These things are important for published works, and they help to ensure that (at least most of the time) the author’s intent is what the reader picks up. On a message board, that kind of refinement would mean the thread would leave me far behind. Besides, it’s a two-way communication. If my tone or meaning is unclear, readers can ask me to clarify. Internet/texting shorthand isn’t a shortcut to communication if you’re talking about published works, no. But it most certainly is a shortcut to communication if you’re talking about real time electronic communication, just as tone, posture and facial expression are shortcuts to communication if you’re speaking in person, but tiresome exposition if explicitly described over and over again in a novel. Different media = different tools. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/11 "2011-01-10T18:11:07Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Internet/texting shorthand isn’t a shortcut to communication if you’re talking about published works, no. But it most certainly is a shortcut to communication if you’re talking about real time electronic communication, just as tone, posture and facial expression are shortcuts to communication if you’re speaking in person, but tiresome exposition if explicitly described over and over again in a novel. > > Different media = different tools. I agree. **Kanicbird’s** premise though seemed to be that teaching formal language rules is a form of mind control that inhibits communication. I do not agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/12 "2011-01-10T18:15:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Also, anyone who wishes, to hold up Abraham Lincoln, as a model, of English usage, owes it to him, or herself, to read some of his writings, many of which are available online, and see how often, he uses the comma. I did not realize he was a comma freak. Did that diminish his writing? Admittedly I am not well read when it comes to Lincoln but I have always been fond of the Gettysburg Address as a piece of writing. Indeed I consider it a stellar example of what good writing can achieve. Just IMHO though. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/13 "2011-01-10T18:19:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I agree. > > **Kanicbird’s** premise though seemed to be that teaching formal language rules is a form of mind control that inhibits communication. > > I do not agree with that. No, I don’t either. I didn’t read the other thread, so was just responding to this one. To **kanicbird** ’s point (assuming you’re repeating it correctly) I’d say that good writing is like jazz: you need to learn the rules to learn when to disregard them and make art. Music with no form is noise. Music with form that intentionally breaks away from that form with purpose and grace is art. Writing with no form is gibberish. Writing with form that intentionally breaks away from that form with purpose and grace is art. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/14 "2011-01-10T18:24:48Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > … I’d say that good writing is like jazz: you need to learn the rules to learn when to disregard them and make art. > > Music with no form is noise. Music with form that intentionally breaks away from that form with purpose and grace is art. > > Writing with no form is gibberish. Writing with form that intentionally breaks away from that form with purpose and grace is art. Well put. I’m going to steal that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/15 "2011-01-10T18:28:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well put. > > I’m going to steal that. 😉 YW 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/16 "2011-01-10T18:51:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I did not realize he was a comma freak. > > Did that diminish his writing? Admittedly I am not well read when it comes to Lincoln but I have always been fond of the Gettysburg Address as a piece of writing. Indeed I consider it a stellar example of what good writing can achieve. Just IMHO though. He uses the comma, in a manner consistent with the practice of his time, which was, a great deal more often, than is now the case, and can make reading, his writings from the time, though perhaps the Gettysburg Address itself does not suffer egregiously from this, rather difficult. See, for instance, his speech, given in chambers of Congress, concerning President Polk’s cited _casus belli_, which Lincoln judged fraudulent, for the war with Mexico: > [@Honest Abe](#): > > [When the war began](http://www.animatedatlas.com/mexwar/lincoln2.html), it was my opinion that all those who, because of knowing too little, or because of knowing too much, could not conscientiously approve the conduct of the President, in the beginning of it, should, nevertheless, as good citizens and patriots, remain silent on that point, at least till the war should be ended. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/17 "2011-01-10T19:03:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > He uses the comma, in a manner consistent with the practice of his time, which was, a great deal more often, than is now the case, and can make reading, his writings from the time, though perhaps the Gettysburg Address itself does not suffer egregiously from this, rather difficult. > > See, for instance, his speech, given in chambers of Congress, concerning President Polk’s cited _casus belli_, which Lincoln judged fraudulent, for the war with Mexico: That’s a silly position, given that these were are remain speeches. The commas are, and do indeed, add to the spoken effect by specifying pauses. The faqct that custom and even media changes does not in any way change the deep power of his words, and those who fail to see the absolute brilliance of his rheoteric are sadly bound by the chains of faddism. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/18 "2011-01-10T19:11:21Z")
There are places for everything. Lincoln’s address would not have been improved by emoticons, but I suspect that had he had them, e e cummings would have made good use of emoticons. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/19 "2011-01-10T20:51:24Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > To **kanicbird** ’s point (assuming you’re repeating it correctly) I’d say that good writing is like jazz: you need to learn the rules to learn when to disregard them and make art. This is to my point. Children are inhibited in taking a artful form of language by threat of a bad grade, which could be imposed arbitrary, sometimes the teacher may let it go or may not, which adds to the confusion which tends towards conformity and the loss of creativity. And the Gettysburg address does have ‘emoticons’, we all know them, we’ve heard it and seen it, we know the tone and inflection of the voice, when Abe pounds the podium, we know the emotion behind each and every sentence because we have all heard it, which is a much different form then written communications without emoticons. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115/20 "2011-01-10T21:48:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I could be entirely wrong. Maybe Lincoln really sounded like Gilbert Gottfried. A contemporary account of Lincoln’s voice. Well, a couple years after Lincolns death actually, but still written while he was within living memory. Lincoln’s voice was, when he first began speaking, shrill, squeaking, piping, unpleasant; his general look, his form, his pose, the color of his flesh, wrinkled and dry, his sensitiveness, and his momentary diffidence, everything seemed to be against him, but he soon recovered. - a letter from William H. Herndon written on July 19, 1887 Personally, this description leaves me thinking ‘helium’. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-gettysburg-address-have-been-improved-if-lincoln-used-emoticons/567115.md?page=2)