# Would the Philippines have started US's entry into World War II? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505 "2011-11-29T23:30:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/1 "2011-11-29T23:30:11Z")
I’ve read that the US forces in Philippines needed to be neutralized in order for Japan to go after SE Asia’s oil and rubber. Shortly after Pearl (like a few hours), they attacked US bases in the Philippines. But suppose they didn’t go all the way to Hawaii, and picked the Philippines first. Would the attacks on Clark Field and Cavite lead to a day of infamy and galvanize the nation? They were a US territory just like Hawaii. Or would the Asian remoteness and “foreignness” of the Philippines work against public perception? Most of the soldiers were brown Filipinos (about 80% of the forces at Bataan), so would the American public not think of it as an attack on the USA, unlike the Navy’s battleships at Pearl? Naturally, the war would’ve changed, we would send our intact Pacific fleet steaming to the Philippines. But that’s not my question. We’d still have to declare war first, would it have been a harder sell for FDR? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/2 "2011-11-29T23:38:49Z")
I think we’d still have declared war, but the outrage in the States wouldn’t be quite as great. The gentlewoman from Montana probally wouldn’t have the only member of Congress to vote against it and the America First Committee wouldn’t have been disbanded (at least not so quickly). Hitler would probally still declare war on the US, which means Churchill still would’ve declared war on Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/3 "2011-11-30T09:33:27Z")
It absolutely would cause a war between the US and Japan. The Philippines was a US protectorate at the time, slated to be given independence in 1949. The US was responsible for its defense; US ground and air forces were based there and the USN Asiatic Fleet was based at Manila. A modern analogy would be asking if an invasion of Puerto Rico would result in war with the US. US plans for a war with Japan dating back to the 1920s, [War Plan Orange](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Orange), assumed a war with Japan would begin with a Japanese invasion of the Philippines. The US plan was to hold out in the Philippines in a delaying action while the US Pacific Fleet sailed for the Philippines bringing along ground reinforcements for both there and Guam and seeking decisive battle with the Japanese battle line. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/4 "2011-11-30T09:42:07Z")
The U.S. would have entered the war since the Philippines was a property of the U.S. at the time. It’s highly unlikely that the public support for the war would have even been a small fraction of what it had been like if the PI got attacked instead of Pearl Harbor. [Americans have a well-established history of not caring for filipino loss of life.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War#American_atrocities) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/5 "2011-11-30T12:13:29Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Hitler would probally still declare war on the US, which means Churchill still would’ve declared war on Japan. The War Cabinet of the British Empire declared war on Japan on December 8th, following the previous day’s Japanese attacks on Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong. The non-attack of Pearl Harbor would have made no difference there. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/6 "2011-11-30T13:44:52Z")
The Philippines were the crown jewel in the US overseas territory. And there were over 16,000 US troops (plus the Philippine troops) on the islands. I don’t think the reaction would have been any less than it was for Pearl. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/7 "2011-11-30T13:48:20Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > We’d still have to declare war first, would it have been a harder sell for FDR? Since Japan would declare war on the US in either case, I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/8 "2011-11-30T14:30:46Z")
First, remember that the Japanese did attack the Phillippines and it was a PR nightmare for them. They brutally conquered the island and then followed with a cruel occupation and the Bataan Death March. While that event was not fully explained to the public until 1944, there’s more reason to expect the government to use it as propoganda earlier in this series of events. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/9 "2011-11-30T16:16:16Z")
> [@Bartman](#): > > The Philippines were the crown jewel in the US overseas territory. It’s not like the U.S. ever had very much overseas territory compared to Europe, and in fact the Philippines was as much a prestige piece for the U.S. as it was militarily useful. Resource wise the Philippines has historically been a dissapointment for it’s many colonizers. It is a great naval location in Asia, though. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/10 "2011-11-30T21:02:55Z")
Douglas MacArthur was in charge of the US defense of the Philippines. There is no way that he surrenders an army to the Japanese and we do NOT end up declaring war on Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/11 "2011-12-01T02:09:16Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > Douglas MacArthur was in charge of the US defense of the Philippines. There is no way that he surrenders an army to the Japanese … This is historically correct. He did not surrender his army to the Japanese; he abandoned it to them. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/12 "2011-12-01T02:32:27Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This is historically correct. He did not surrender his army to the Japanese; he abandoned it to them. This is a silly remark. MacArthur’s continued presence in the PI would probably not have prolonged the resistance by one day, and he was certainly more useful to the American war effort as a field commander than he would have been as a POW. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/13 "2011-12-01T02:51:16Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > MacArthur’s continued presence in the PI would probably not have prolonged the resistance by one day, and he was certainly more useful to the American war effort as a field commander than he would have been as a POW. So what? He abandoned his army. That’s a fact. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/14 "2011-12-01T08:25:32Z")
my disappointment is macarthur didn’t bulk up his USAFE enough not just to hold out until reinforments arrived but to repel an invasion. think of it: 15,000 americans plus a total of 100,000 philippine scouts either active or reserve. don’you think with enough mechanized and armored units and artillery he could have defeated a 20,000-man invasion force? ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/15 "2011-12-01T08:34:08Z")
^ a slip: 40,000 japanese initially landed in luzon. homma called in a few more reinforcements during the bataan battle. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/16 "2011-12-01T09:03:27Z")
You’re off on your number of filipino forces by an order of magnitude: > [@](#): > > On 31 July 1941, the Philippine Department had 22,532 troops assigned, approximately half of whom were Filipino.[8] MacArthur recommended the reassignment of the department commander, Maj. Gen. George Grunert in October 1941 and took command himself.[9] The main component of the Department was the U.S. Army Philippine Division, a 10,500-man formation that consisted mostly of Philippine Scouts (PS) combat units.[10] The Philippine Department had been reinforced between August and November 1941 by 8,500 troops of the U.S. Army Air Forces, and by three Army National Guard units, including its only armor, two battalions of M3 light tanks.[11] These units, the 200th Coastal Artillery Regiment (an antiaircraft unit), 192nd Tank Battalion, and 194th Tank Battalion, drew troops from New Mexico, Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, and California.[12][13][14] After reinforcement, the Department’s strength as of 30 November 1941 was 31,095, including 11,988 Philippine Scouts.[15] from wiki. They didn’t stand a chance to defend the Philippines from a professional Japanese invasion force. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/17 "2011-12-01T09:10:00Z")
how expensive would it have been to station one armored division and maybe two infantry with lots of artillery and ammo stores? remember, the 80,000-man force was able to halt homma’s intial attack at bataan. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/18 "2011-12-01T13:53:34Z")
Sure, it could have been done. But the U .S. fundemantally just didn’t believe Japan would attack us precisely because it was an incredibly stupid move, and therefore saw no need. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/19 "2011-12-01T14:04:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sure, it could have been done. But the U .S. fundemantally just didn’t believe Japan would attack us precisely because it was an incredibly stupid move, and therefore saw no need. …? War plan Orange explicitly assumed that Japan would invade the Philippines. All of the war warnings explicitly mentioned the Philippines as a potential target. The US was reinforcing the Philippine garrison as quickly as they could. The only mistake is they started too late and assumed they would have till around June '42 when they started the buildup. When they were attacked in December '41, they simply hadn’t been reinforced enough yet. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/20 "2011-12-01T14:30:26Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > how expensive would it have been to station one armored division and maybe two infantry with lots of artillery and ammo stores? remember, the 80,000-man force was able to halt homma’s intial attack at bataan. A serious question - did the United States have an Armored Division fit to deploy overseas in 1941? IIRC the 1st and 2nd Armored Division were formed in 1940 but were they ready to deploy? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505.md?page=2)