# Would the Philippines have started US's entry into World War II? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 29, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505 "2011-11-29T23:30:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/41 "2011-12-02T23:13:03Z")
A lot have discussed the impossibility of reinforcing PI due to time constraints. Suppose on 1 September 1939, the Sec’y of War decides that eventually we are going to get into a shooting war. Not full mobilization but more of a “Be Prepared” scenerio. Could (and would) PI have been fortified to withstand the eventual Japanese attack on 7 December 1941? ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/42 "2011-12-03T01:37:56Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Pretty much anything imaginable “compares favorably to Spanish rule” though. I took a tour of Fort Santiago in Manila. The Spanish had built a prison there, but stopped using it once they discovered it tended to flood and drown the prisoners. The Japanese used Fort Santiago as a prison… for the exact same reason. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/43 "2011-12-03T01:39:49Z")
@ **Saint Cad**. Sure, given a couple of years the Philippines could have been made much more defensible. There was a limit on what could have been done without an active mobilization. But in real history USAFFE wasn’t created until the end of July '41. By then it was too late. But make the exact same decision in Sept. '39, and McArthur could have his 12 Philippine divisions actually trained and equipped. That would have made it a much tougher nut to crack. The Japanese could probably still _eventually_ capture Luzon, but they would have had to throw everything at it, and either delay Malay, Burma, and the Dutch Indies six months or cancel some of them entirely. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/44 "2011-12-05T00:39:05Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Interestingly, the Philippines do not feel that way about the Americans. Other than some early unpleasantness, the Americans were pretty good at running things over there. The Philippine-American was was over fairly quickly, except the Moros. americans staged the first genocide in the 20th century in the philippines. their own estimates of filipino deaths (mostly unarmed civilians) was 100,000 to 200,000 while filipino historians add the effects of famine, disease and dislocation and put it to a cool 1 million. but the americans won the territory fair and square and had no choice but to put down a nagging rebellion. the number of deaths just mystifies is all. > [@](#): > > From the Philippine histories I’ve read, the US compares favorably with the Spanish, as they did a lot of infrastructure improvements, and did set them on pace to eventual independence. Things had changed a lot from McKinley’s white-mans burden attitude at the turn of the century. the public school system is the americans’ lasting legacy in the philippines, something the spaniards pointedly avoided for more than 300 years. ever wondered why filipinos are so good in english? > [@](#): > > The Japanese occupation? I have never EVER heard a Filipino say anything positive about that experience. The Japanese would’ve chuckled at the American atrocities in the above cited war: Amateurs! ☹ oh the japanese were nasty oftentimes but the garrisons also included chinese and korean conscripts. so-called collaborators profited but many of them were just pacifists who saw no point in opposing the regime. the japanese appointed the incumbent chief justice to be the president instead of assigning a japanese governor-general. and they interrogated all captured filipino army officers for possible inclusion into the japanese army. so the japanese meant well on the whole. control systems were just weak. and one can’t eliminate the a-hole factor at the front lines. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/45 "2011-12-05T00:53:51Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > …so the japanese meant well on the whole. control systems were just weak. and one can’t eliminate the a-hole factor at the front lines. The Japanese did NOT mean well on whole! Their so-called "Greater East Asia Co-Propsperity Sphere was nothing but a sham so cynical it was not even meant to decieve. All of the Asian people under Japanese rule were subject to brutal homicidal exploitation little if any better than what the Nazis were meting out in Eastern Europe. Furthermore, Japanese control systems were stronger than anyone’s, including the Germans: pre-1945 Japanese obedience and deference to authority may have had no equal in human history, and no atrocity would ever have been commited if forbidden by authority. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/46 "2011-12-05T00:55:43Z")
It should be noted that in 1941, Hawaii wasn’t a state either, but merely a territory so attacking the Phillipines wouldn’t be dramatically different. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/47 "2011-12-05T01:26:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It should be noted that in 1941, Hawaii wasn’t a state either, but merely a territory so attacking the Phillipines wouldn’t be dramatically different. Hawaii was dramatically different in geographical location and degree of assimilation, having been a prominent missionary target, a commercial development project, and a virtual protectorate for decades before before there was any American presence in the PI. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/48 "2011-12-05T01:48:47Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > The Japanese did NOT mean well on whole! > > Their so-called "Greater East Asia Co-Propsperity Sphere was nothing but a sham > so cynical it was not even meant to decieve. then what’s the point in fostering self-governance among filipinos even at time of war? what was the point in trying to teach filipino school children japanese? > [@](#): > > All of the Asian people under Japanese rule were subject to brutal homicidal exploitation > little if any better than what the Nazis were meting out in Eastern Europe. there was no gassing in the philippines. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, Japanese control systems were stronger than anyone’s, including the Germans: > pre-1945 Japanese obedience and deference to authority may have had no equal in human history, > and no atrocity would ever have been commited if forbidden by authority. wrong, wrong and most appallingly wrong. don’t waste anyone’s time with cites. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/49 "2011-12-05T02:10:10Z")
\ > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > americans staged the first genocide in the 20th century in the philippines. their own estimates of filipino deaths (mostly unarmed civilians) was 100,000 to 200,000 while filipino historians add the effects of famine, disease and dislocation and put it to a cool 1 million. The figure 100,000 is not completley implausible, but I would still like to see it sourced. However, the word genocide is the one of the most grossly misused in modern histroical parlance, and it is grossly misuded here. Properly speaking it refers to intent to kill an _entire_ ethnic group, and applies only to such rare, extreme atrocities as the Roman destruction of Carthage, and the Nazis’ attempted murder of all European Jewry. Furthermore, the figure 1,000,000 deaths is ludicrous unless you want to believe the Filipinos suffered almost _as many deaths as the entire British Empire did in World I_. One of the most baleful agandas of the modern revisionist school of history is to paint Western depredation on non-Westerners as being much worse than there is any reason to believe was. Thereby more Congolese are supposed to have died ~1880&ff than Soviets killed in WW2, and more American Indians were supposed to have died ~1500&ff than the entire population of Latin americ ca. 1850. Things were bad enough without subjecting the numbers to promiscuous exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/50 "2011-12-05T02:33:17Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > then what’s the point in fostering self-governance among filipinos even at time of war? what was the point in trying to teach filipino school children japanese? The Japanese did NOT foster self-government among any of their subject peoples 1894-1945, and it obviously comes in handy if your servants can speak your language, not that I believe the Japanese diverted many resources to the Filipino education. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > there was no gassing in the philippines. “Brutal homicidal exploitation in Eastern Europe” did not include the outright genocide faced by the Jews. You do know that over 2,000,000 gentile Poles died, didn’t you? Also over 20 million citizens of the USSR, most of them not in battle. Wiki is as good as any for citation. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > .wrong, wrong and most appallingly wrong. > > don’t waste anyone’s time with cites. The Japaense were foridden to surrender, and the common soldiers delivered: more Germans surrendered at Stalingrad alone (~90,000)than Japanese in all theaters 1941-45. See Wiki for citation. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/51 "2011-12-05T02:47:10Z")
not every japanese garrison was encircled in bittler cold with no chance of relief or even escape. the person who killed the 350,000 soldiers of the sixth army was field marshall von manstein who sent von paulus the message that he must stand, even while he still had the option to pull back. by the time von paulus surrendered, the sixth was down to the number you mentioned but von manstein’s plan at least worked. he was able to prevent the complete collapse of the entire southern front. there were japanese soldiers who surrendered. droves of them before and after the emperor’s speech. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/52 "2011-12-05T03:02:05Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Furthermore, Japanese control systems were stronger than anyone’s, including the Germans: > pre-1945 Japanese obedience and deference to authority may have had no equal in human history, > and no atrocity would ever have been commited if forbidden by authority. Wow… you really need to brush up on your Japanese history. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/53 "2011-12-05T03:12:53Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > not every japanese garrison was encircled in bittler cold with no chance of relief or even escape. Tarawa? Iwo Jima? Okinawa? Chance of escape? Nope. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > the person who killed the 350,000 soldiers of the sixth army was field marshall von manstein who sent von paulus the message that he must stand, It was Hitler and not Von Mantein who made all those decisions and gave all those orders. BTW Paulus was not a “Von”. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > even while he still had the option to pull back. Even when who had the option to pull back? The only possibly saving option was for Paulus to disobey Hitler’s orders and attempt to break out and join up with Von Mantein’s relief column. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > by the time von paulus surrendered, the sixth was down to the number you mentioned but von manstein’s plan at least worked. he was able to prevent the complete collapse of the entire southern front. What is the point? Von Mantein might have been Germany’s best fighting general of the war, and he won the last German Eastern Front victory at Kharkov in the winter of 1943. But that has nothing to do with relative fanatacism. I own the book Russia at War by _Guardian_ reporter Alexander Werth who spent the war in the USSR. Soviet Marshall Zhukov was one of the few who had fought against both Germans and Japanese and he is quoted by Werth as saying the Germans “lacked the Japanese’ true fanatacism”. > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > there were japanese soldiers who surrendered. droves of them before and after the emperor’s speech. No, _not_ before the speech. And once the Emperor authorized surrender it was no longer disgraceful, and conditions were completely changed. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/54 "2011-12-05T03:16:32Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Wow… you really need to brush up on your Japanese history. Great contribution, junior, tell me something about it. Then look up _bushido_ and tell me more. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505/55 "2011-12-05T05:45:36Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > From the Philippine histories I’ve read, the US compares favorably with the Spanish, as they did a lot of infrastructure improvements, **and did set them on pace to eventual independence.** Things had changed a lot from McKinley’s white-mans burden attitude at the turn of the century. You cannot give the Americans credit for the Philippines’ eventual independence considering they went to war to keep them from it in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-philippines-have-started-uss-entry-into-world-war-ii/604505.md?page=2)