# Would the Rapture Be Proof Enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059 "2002-08-15T17:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/201 "2002-08-21T19:11:47Z")
How can my stand be a cop-out when I hold the same standard for the existence or non-existence of a god? You can say what you want, but you’ve proven time and again that you believe in something because it is comforting to you and for no other reason. You will deny the science that disproves it because you prefer your insulated fantasy to the harsh reality of life on Earth. Believe me, I have neither the desire nor the energy to convert you. It just bothers me that you come here to fight ignorance and then flip-flop the rules to suit your needs. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/202 "2002-08-21T19:29:41Z")
> [@](#): > > EchoKitty, the reason is because I have a personal relationship with God. I cannot have a personal relationship with evolution or the [talkorigins.com](http://talkorigins.com) website or any kind of information you conlude as evidence. I’ve another question for yèou, \*\* dreamer \*\* which is directly related to this comment of your. Your belief is based on the personnal relationship you claim to have with God. What exactly in this relationship makes you think that the whole set of belief you’re holding is true. For instance, you believe in the rapture. A lot of christians don’t. How dcan you know whether the rapture will take place or not? Did God told you so? Same question about for instance your belief that the bible is liutterary true. A lot of christians, who claim too they have a personnal relationship with God don’t believe it. So, once again, what convinced you? Did God tell you so? And in case of your beliefs (except the part about the actual existence of God, which I’m considering as a given for the purpose of my question) are based on arguments rather than on your personnal connection with God, what makes you reject opposite arguments, exactly? For instance, I’ve written here several times that God can’t at the same time be all-loving and sent people in hell to burn forever. Other people, who contrarily to me are christians, are making the same claim (there’s no way the loving god i’ve a personnal relationship with could sent people in a furnace/ have ordered to kill babies/ whatever). If these particular beliefs aren’t based on your personnal relationship with god, why would you consider arguments coming from atheists/other kind of christians as having less value than arguments coming by people in your congreagation/church/ whatever. What makes these arguments less convincing, exactly? Should the value of an argument be dependant on the person providing it (God excepted) or on its own merits? ---
**Author:** ![keeper0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@keeper0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeper0)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/203 "2002-08-21T19:53:44Z")
I think you are being a little harsh on **dreamer** there, **EchoKitty**. There is a frustrating tendency of Bible literalists to contend that quoting a passage is a valid logical argument. **Dreamer** seems to openly and comfortably admit that it is a matter of faith and based on personal experiences. Now, the OP did ask us rationalists what it would take to convince us? We want verifiable proof. Every “fundamentalist” spontaneously disappearing as in Left Behind, would be pretty solid evidence. Until then, all the objective evidence leads me the other way. (I doubt God would really mind that, after all, Thomas needed proof but was accepted as an Apostle). The tables were turned on **Dreamer** by asking what would change her mind? It would “take a miracle”. Or, more specifically, a new revelation. After three summerless years, with the sun half eaten by a wolf, Dreamer will probably be down on her knees praying that Odin is not feeling vengeful (as will I be). If she recognized Jesus walking down the street and he said “You are kind of focusing too much on some things that lost a bit in the translation from Divine to Aramaic to Latin to English. Try to focus on…” she would be right on board. A logical argument will not displace a thesis not based on logic. When we try have a strictly logical discussion, it is not a level ground. The believer has an impregnable position unless he or she chooses to challenge their support mechanism. I appreciate **dreamer’s** frankness about this. [sub] This is just IMHO on this discussion. I appreciate finding a “reasonable fundamentalist”, and am now searching for signs of “army intelligence”. [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/204 "2002-08-21T20:08:40Z")
I admit I may have been a bit harsh, and I apologize if my tone came across as anything but frustrated, which is how I feel. I still don’t see how I turned the tables on her simply by asking the question she posed. After all, this is a debate, not an opinion. My beef here is that she uses emotion as the basis for her belief, and a twisted sort of logic for her to be a non-believer. I don’t see it as a fair way to determine the truth. Does anyone else see the point I’m trying to make? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/205 "2002-08-21T20:16:49Z")
Thank You **keeper0**. I could not have said it any better and I really appreciate the way in which you said it :). ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/206 "2002-08-22T00:19:37Z")
dreamer, with all due respect, I believe that when the rapture does happen, the people who are “meant” to be saved will get it, and those who aren’t, will think its maybe aliens; that is, if its really that noticable. I know a very few folks in real life who seem worthy enough to go.(I’m not including myself here) ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/207 "2002-08-22T01:02:14Z")
Who are the ones worthy of going **vanilla**? In your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/208 "2002-08-22T10:50:28Z")
Actually, I’ve been thinking that asking Christians and followers of other faiths what it would take to get us not to believe might make a _very_ interesting topic. That said, I’d rather it was left for another thread, rather than hijacking this one. After all, belief in the Rapture only applies to some Christians, and I’m not even sure you could say the majority of them. I’d start the thread myself, but I choose persist in my faith despite arguments appealing to logic, contradictions, unfairness, etc. including unanswered questions. CJ ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/209 "2002-08-22T13:14:22Z")
I took your advice, CJ, and started a new thread. Sorry for the hijack. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/210 "2002-08-22T13:54:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*dreamer, with all due respect, I believe that when the rapture does happen, the people who are “meant” to be saved will get it, and those who aren’t, will think its maybe aliens; that is, if its really that noticable. > I know a very few folks in real life who seem worthy enough to go.(I’m not including myself here) \*\* **Vanilla** , my boss told me yesterday about a book she’d gotten, called something like _Love in the Cards_. It purports to use numerology to figure out what playing card represents your personality, and then tells you what your love life has in store for you based on your being, for example, the Jack of Clubs. I’m wondering: do you have any more basis for this belief of yours than my boss has for her belief that being a nine of diamonds determines whom she oughtta go out with? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/211 "2002-08-22T21:14:32Z")
I’m still waiting for an answer to why you put so much faith in the rapture as described by Darby and more recently Linsey, teachings that has been around for all of 5% of the history of Christianity? Do you believe in every new Christian theory out there, such as Benny Hinn claiming Adam could fly and Eve was meant to give birth out of her side? Why would God, who according to the bible empowers Christians to do greater things than Jesus, which descibes faith in terms of breastplates and helmets and swords, suddenly wisk away believers in the face of opposition like they are some feeble, broken creatures that need extra protection? What are the alternatives to those few bible verses used to create this rapture theory? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/212 "2002-08-23T00:10:11Z")
dreamer, I’m glad I could finally get online to correct my statement. (librarys computers were down) No on eis worthy. No one ever can be. We are saved only by grace, our works mean nothing (chrisitians believe this). So all of us christians will go in the rapture. Lemme say again, our good works mean nothing, grace is the only thing getting us “in”. So maybe some of us will be surprised who we see up there. (personally, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see pl) ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/213 "2002-08-23T01:39:34Z")
I agree completely **vanilla** , I just thought because you said it might not even be noticeable (the rapture) that maybe you thought that not many will go. From what I understand all who believe in Jesus and his death and resurrection and that he is their Savior and follow him will go. Being worthy has nothing to do with it because as you said no one is worthy. I’d name a few people who I think will someday find God, but I don’t think they would appreciate that ;). ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/214 "2002-08-23T03:12:11Z")
**Guinastasia** > [@](#): > > And how exactly do you know this for sure? > > This is what us Catholics call the “sin of presumption”. > > NO ONE knows. ONLY GOD the FATHER. Not even Christ himself. I am sorry **Guinastasia** , but where does the bible speak of “sin of presumption”, or is this just something the Catholics hold true? _ **Mat 24:36**"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father_ Is that what you are referring to? If so, this doesn’t have anything to do with knowing if you are going to heaven. If not, I am probably just not understanding what passage you are referring to. Help me out here. We can know we are going to heaven. You should know that, because the bible tells us so. We don’t deserve to, but we can by the grace of God. Keep in mind that you keep repeating how it’s Catholic doctrine. I am assuming that dreamer is not Catholic, and is a bible believing/following Christian. ( sorry if I am wrong **Dreamer** ) We do not follow Catholic doctrine, we follow what the the Bible teaches. > [@](#): > > **EchoKitty** _partial quote_ > you’ve proven time and again that you believe in something because it is comforting to you and for **no other reason. You will deny the science that disproves it** because you prefer your insulated fantasy to the harsh reality of life on Earth. **Wrong**. Yes, it is comforting to know that God is there for us, But that’s not the only reason we believe. There is the prophecies that have come true. There are the prophecies that are to come (which looks as if it will be soon for some things). It seems like everyday someone is saying that \_\_\_\_\_\_ never existed, and archeologist prove otherwise. It’s the person relationship with God that shows us in many different ways why He is real and true. You cannot be expected to understand that unless you have God. **BTW** , I was unaware that science disproved God, is this recent? Last time I heard, science couldn’t prove or disprove God. I am suprised this wasn’t on the news. :rolleyes: by **clairobscur** > [@](#): > > Your belief is based on the personnal relationship you claim to have with God. **What exactly in this relationship makes you think that the whole set of belief you’re holding is true.** For instance, you believe in the rapture. A lot of christians don’t. How dcan you know whether the rapture will take place or not? Did God told you so? Same question about for instance your belief that the bible is liutterary true. A lot of christians, who claim too they have a personnal relationship with God don’t believe it. So, once again, what convinced you? Did God tell you so? If we believe in what the Bible teaches and we have a personal relationship with God we can know what we believe is true. Some people claim to be Christian but just follow the pastor/priest blindly. How then can you know anything is true. The Bible tells us not to follow blindly, but to search the scriptures for ourselves. If we do so, we can know what is true and what is not. Being close to God only opens your eyes and heart more. Also, again, God doesn’t send people to Hell. People choose to go there. You have a choice. Some choose not to go, and they follow God. Others love themselves to much and there worldly possesions, so they find it to difficult to love and follow God. That is choosing Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/215 "2002-08-23T13:27:06Z")
Dreamer said: > [@](#): > > I’d name a few people who I think will someday find God, but I don’t think they would appreciate that . Just so we’re clear: the reason that no one appreciates a statement like that is because it’s smug, self-righteous, and designed to short-circuit the argument. It basically is a way of saying, “You may not realize I’m right yet, but one day you will.” Heck. I could say that one day you’ll realize that your belief in YhWh is unsupported by evidence and the sign of a neurosis that you’ll outgrow. But that would be just as rude as your saying that one day I’d find God. Just a little public service: I think that sometimes bornagainners don’t realize why some of the things they say are so annoying. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/216 "2002-08-23T13:44:11Z")
Jersey Diamond, you wouldn’t believe it even if it was on the news, although my intent was not to prove or disprove god (that’s up to you christians). I’m talking about the fundy belief that the earth was formed 6,000 or so years ago, that dinosaur bones were planted to throw us off the trail, and other such mind-numbing fiction that is spewed regularly by the “gotta share” club. So, :rolleyes: yourself! ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/217 "2002-08-23T18:25:20Z")
> [@](#): > > There is the prophecies that have come true. There are the prophecies that are to come (which looks as if it will be soon for some things). **JerseyDiamond** , would you consider joining me in a new thread where we can go over these prophecies and find the ones that have taken place already and see if we can’t “prove” that the bible has predicted these things? ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/218 "2002-08-23T18:49:38Z")
Yeah, and don’t forget to quote Nostradomus while you’re at it!:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/219 "2002-08-23T18:54:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I am sorry Guinastasia, but where does the bible speak > of “sin of presumption”, or is this just something the Catholics > hold true? **Jersey Diamond** , I’m sure that you’ll agree with me that there are many things _implied_ but not spoken straight out in the Bible. Most obvious example is the Trinity – the idea that there is **one god** that consists of Jesus Christ our Lord, His God and Father, and the Holy Spirit Whom He sent. It’s implicit in most of the New Testament and foreshadowed here and there in the Old, but nowhere is it stated or defined, or even that those three together constitute one godhead suggested. It’s a logical conclusion from the evidence on hand. Likewise, the “sin of presumption” is a bit of Catholic (and many other churches’) doctrine derived from scripture though nowhere spelled out in it. To answer your question on the scriptural source for it, let me suggest one passage: > [@](#): > > [Jesus] also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, "God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14, NRSV) Tell me, of what sin was the Pharisee guilty? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/220 "2002-08-23T19:02:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, and don’t forget to quote Nostradomus while you’re at it! Hey if you wanna tackle that one go for it **EchoKitty** 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=12)