# Would the Rapture Be Proof Enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059 "2002-08-15T17:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/221 "2002-08-23T19:06:14Z")
Yeah, and don’t forget to quote Nostradomus while you’re at it!:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/222 "2002-08-23T21:44:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Keep in mind that you keep repeating how it’s > Catholic doctrine. I am assuming that dreamer is not Catholic, and is > a bible believing/following Christian. ( sorry if I am wrong Dreamer) > We do not follow Catholic doctrine, we follow what the the Bible teaches. And these are mutually exclusive how? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/223 "2002-08-24T03:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Tell me, of what sin was the Pharisee guilty? **How about Pride and hypocracy!** **Polycarp** , it helps a lot if you actually read what you post. You ignored the verse that states the whole purpose of the parable. Why don’t you try it again, starting at verse 9: > [@](#): > > To some who were **confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else** , Jesus told this parable…[NIV] OR And he spake this parable unto certain **which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others** [KJV] **Polycarp** , the Bible does not say the word ‘Trinity’, but it does say "Father, Son, and Holy spirit. With all due respect, that’s a really weak argument. Guy 1: “Help, I got bitten!” Guy 2: “By what?” Guy 1: “A long reptile with fangs and no legs that slithers around and bites people!” Guy 2: “Aha! A snake!” Guy 3: “Oh no it’s not! He didn’t say snake! He never said the word snake!” Whether the word “trinity” is in the text or not, it’s obvious to anyone with half a brain that the concept is there. Anyway, I still cannot find anything relating to **Guinastasia’s** “sin of presumption” or that knowing you are going to heaven is a sin. The parable you speak of is also about **pride** , and the sin of saying “Oh God, thank you for how good I am, Thank you for making me better than this piece of crap next to me!” There is a big difference and it is **not** related, **Polycarp**. It is not pride to be confident that I am going to heaven. I am not trusting in myself, I am trusting in Jesus. **Guinastasia** : They’re not mutally exclusive. But you seem to think that they are the same thing. They are not. But since you seem to think they are, I’m sure you’ll have no trouble showing me in the Bible where it says we are unsure of our salvation until the moment of Judgement, right? I’d really like to see that. You guys always spend so much time quoting from the Catechism or from Catholic doctrine, but you don’t ever quote it from the Bible. The reason, I guess, is that there’s no Biblical support for it. > [@](#): > > **Jersey Diamond, you wouldn’t believe it even if it was on the news, although my intent was not to prove or disprove god (that’s up to you christians). I’m talking about the fundy belief that the earth was formed 6,000 or so years ago, that dinosaur bones were planted to throw us off the trail, and other such mind-numbing fiction that is spewed regularly by the “gotta share” club. So, :rolleyes: yourself!** **echokitty** : that’s a straw man with enough straw to open up a mattress factory! I don’t think I said anything about creation at all. In fact, the only person around here I’ve seen “spewing fiction” about dinosaur bones being put here to trick us is YOU. But since you mention it, the Bible is not a geology textbook. It tells us about God and how to have a relationship with him, not about where dinosaurs came from. Anyway, back to the “sin of presumption”: > [@](#): > > 1 Th 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. > 1 Th 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. > 1 Th 5:4 **But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief**. > [@](#): > > 1 Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. > 1 Th 5:10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Sounds to me like we have the right to be confident in our salvation (not our righteousness). But if you still don’t believe me, try this: > [@](#): > > 2 Cor 3:4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. > 2 Cor 3:5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. > 2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. > [@](#): > > Eph 3:10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, > Eph 3:11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. > Eph 3:12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. > [@](#): > > Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet was without sin. > Heb 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. > [@](#): > > Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” > Heb 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” > Heb 10:18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. > Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, > Heb 10:20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, > Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, > Heb 10:22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. > [@](#): > > Heb 10:34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. > Heb 10:35 So **do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded**. > [@](#): > > Heb 13:5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” > Heb 13:6 So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” > [@](#): > > 1 John 3:19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence > 1 John 3:20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. > 1 John 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God Ok, I’ll stop now. But I really don’t know how it can be more clear that we are entitled to confidence in our salvation. Guinastatia, comments? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/224 "2002-08-24T22:29:59Z")
Basically, sin of presumption means, do not ASSUME you are going to Heaven, or you are forgiven. To be more specific, it could be, for example, committing a sin, and saying, “Oh, God will forgive me!” Or Oh, I can just go to confession. It doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2002, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/225 "2002-08-25T02:39:05Z")
😕 **Guinastasia, what does that have to do with the price of apples in China?** _I said nothing of the sort._ You asked **dreamer** how she knows she is going to heaven. You proceeded to say something about The Catholic doctine “sin of presumption”. I then showed why (with using the Bible) we can be confident about such things. JD ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/226 "2002-08-26T15:04:42Z")
[Assured Salvation](http://soma.npa.uiuc.edu/~dbranch/script_cath/PERMSAV.HTM)? ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/227 "2002-08-26T15:26:25Z")
JerseyDiamond said, “I don’t think I said anything about creation at all. In fact, the only person around here I’ve seen “spewing fiction” about dinosaur bones being put here to trick us is YOU.” I was speaking of christians in general…not this thread in particular. I believe I’ve seen you post in other threads, and the subject does come up. Are you saying that christians DON’T believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old? ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/228 "2002-08-26T15:36:53Z")
That’s not to say I saw YOU post those exact things, but christians in general (Dreamer, to name one) believe that the earth is much younger than modern science calculates it to be. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/229 "2002-08-26T15:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > . Are you saying that christians DON’T believe that the Earth is only a few thousand years old? As ahs already been posted in several threads, many Christians reconcile their faith with science. **Polycarp, Duck Duck Goose, Jodi,** and\*\* Guinistasia\*\* are just a few of the example that come to mind. The Young Earth Creationists, like **Dreamer, Jersey Diamond** , and **His4ever** are part of a segment of american fundamentalists who think that the Bible’s creation stories must be accepted as an historical account of the process of the appearance of life on Earth. But not all Christians believe in creationism, just the uneducated ones. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/230 "2002-08-26T16:19:43Z")
I knew that. I forgot to add the word “some”. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/231 "2002-08-26T16:30:14Z")
**But not all Christians believe in creationism, just the uneducated ones.** I wouldn’t exactly say that. Although education has been shown to be a large factor in whether someone believes in evolution or creationism, there are other things involved. How likely people are to look at things with an objective eye is a big one here. If the people in question are likely to get emotionally invested, though still intelligent, then the cognitive dissonance required to continue believe in creationism is quite easy to pull of. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/232 "2002-08-26T16:34:06Z")
I knew that. I forgot to add the word “some”. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/233 "2002-08-26T17:12:43Z")
Count **vanilla** as one of the christians who doesn’t really _care_ when mankind was created. All that matters is that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and lives forever. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/234 "2002-08-27T04:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Count vanilla as one of the christians who doesn’t really care when mankind was created. > All that matters is that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and lives forever. I’ll second that and add that I did some research on what my earlier beliefs were about how old the earth is and have pretty much figured out that I don’t know, could be wrong, could be right, but am not sure it matters much in the scheme of things. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/235 "2002-08-27T04:45:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > I’ll second that and add that I did some research on what my earlier beliefs were about how old the earth is and have pretty much figured out that I don’t know, could be wrong, could be right, but am not sure it matters much in the scheme of things. IMO. \*\* Why do you not think that the age of the Earth matters in the scheme of things? It is of utmost importance to many areas of science, including geology, biology, astronomy… It matters a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/236 "2002-08-27T05:21:08Z")
**JerseyDiamond** -"It seems like everyday someone is saying that \_\_\_\_\_\_ never existed, and archeologist prove otherwise. " Let me guess - Troy? Can you name a couple more(I know it’s tough when you have to exclude the ones that support evolution), maybe within the last 100 years? Not that I can imagine what archeologists are going to find that indicate God’s existence. A “fully functional” ark of the covenant perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/237 "2002-08-27T05:26:11Z")
**Netbrian** , I didn’t mean it doesn’t matter in science etc, just that IMO God’s love and salvation is more important for me to focus on than trying to figure out things like the age of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/238 "2002-08-27T05:28:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Netbrian \* > \*\* > > Why do you not think that the age of the Earth matters in the scheme of things? It is of utmost importance to many areas of science, including geology, biology, astronomy… It matters a great deal. \*\* Why would any of those things be important to someone who believes the Rapture is imminent? ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/239 "2002-08-27T14:07:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Why would any of those things be important to someone who believes the Rapture is imminent? Just so. Isn’t there a (apocryphal?) account of one of Reagan’s advisors being caught saying that it really didn’t matter what we did to the environment, since Christ was coming back soon? A lot of people would like the world to die, in a sort of passive-aggressive way. That kind of mindset is a little baffling to me, but I suppose it takes all sorts. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/240 "2002-08-27T17:28:17Z")
**Drastic** that would be James Watt. He was Secretary of the Interior, and that was only one of many offensive statements. He eventually was forced to resign after making a crack about his committee having two blacks, a woman, three Jews and a cripple, or something like that. The man was a nutcase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=13)