# Would the Rapture Be Proof Enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059 "2002-08-15T17:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/21 "2002-08-15T20:13:14Z")
Are you kidding? I expect it to happen this year! dreamer, the Bible also says God will send them a strong delusion so they _will_ not believe that the Bible predicted this, and they will take the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/22 "2002-08-15T20:18:52Z")
Quick question in addition to all this… Why, praytell, would Paul know exactly what is going to happen involving this? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/23 "2002-08-15T20:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > There will be all kinds of explanations people will come up with. Like what? What other theory could possibly account for the simultaneous disappearance of every fundamentalist\* Christian on the planet _and nobody else_? Your assertion that atheists would just come up with some other explanation drips with the sort of “You guys are all in denial” thinking that is essentially the theistic version of **Jodi** ’s recent complaint about the use of “Magical Sky Pixie.” \*Apologies to **Polycarp** , et al., but non-fundamentalists always seem to get “Left Behind” in these sorts of discussions. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/24 "2002-08-15T20:26:25Z")
If I was wrong and there was proof that I was wrong and God is not what I’ve thought him to be, then I would do the same thing as you would do. I wouldn’t all of a sudden become a believer in whatever it was that is the “true religion” but I would definately research it thoroughly and make my decision. As I said I believe this will one day happen and because of that I also believe these scriptures as well - **Revelation 13:3** _I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and **followed** after the beast;_ **Revelation 13:7** _It was also given to him to make WAR WITH THE SAINTS and to OVERCOME them, and authority over **every tribe and people and tongue and nation** was given to him._ **Revelation 13:8** _ **All who dwell on the earth will worship him,** everyone whose name has NOT been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain._ Obviously the rapture would not only be God’s " manifestations of His power" but also because he says _"I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. "_ So if the test is to see if you believe or not after the rapture then that is what my OP was. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/25 "2002-08-15T20:29:50Z")
What difference would it make if I believed in him? I still wouldn’t worship or obey him, and its not like he can be resisted or evaded, so I really don’t care if he exists. There isn’t even any point in hating him, really. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/26 "2002-08-15T20:31:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > Are you kidding? > I expect it to happen this year! Cool. Can I have all your stuff? > [@](#): > > dreamer, the Bible also says God will send them a strong delusion so they _will_ not believe that the Bible predicted this, and they will take the mark. First, cite? Second, wouldn’t that make the question in the OP, theologically speaking, entirely moot? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/27 "2002-08-15T20:34:08Z")
Ha! You can have all my stuff, which is just about nothing really-some clothes and a book. It is in the Bible-I don’t have it with me right now, but dreamer or someone could nicely look it up in their concordance for me. I think it is a moot question then. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/28 "2002-08-15T20:38:16Z")
As an ex-Christian, I would imagine it would be quite sufficient for me, dreamer. The reason I left Christianity is because I felt that I had no proof that any of it was true. I had no real knowledge of God’s existence, and ‘God’ - if he exists, which I don’t think he does, in the Christian sense - decided not to manifest myself in his life or to answer my prayers (which he, according to other Christians, does for other Christians). If I had that proof – just as if I had irrefutable proof that any other religion were true – I wouldn’t ignore it, just as I couldn’t ignore the fact that I did not have proof to begin with. I imagine in this hypothetical situation, though, that there are some who would deny it. After all, some people still deny the existence of dinosaurs, or of evolution, or of the moon landing, despite all evidence. I don’t think that I am – or, perhaps, I hope that I am not – in that category. On a slightly OT note: when I was younger and before I left the church, I wished that the Rapture would happen within my lifetime, and very soon, because I wanted my friends to have proof of God’s existence so that they would be saved. I didn’t want anybody to be damned, really, but especially the people close to me, who I loved and I couldn’t understand why God would hurt them. Eventually, this was the central reason why I left the church. dreamer, does this answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/29 "2002-08-15T20:40:37Z")
[QUOTE] _Originally posted by minty green \* Like what? What other theory could possibly account for the simultaneous disappearance of every fundamentalist_ Christian on the planet _and nobody else_? Your assertion that atheists would just come up with some other explanation drips with the sort of “You guys are all in denial” thinking that is essentially the theistic version of **Jodi** ’s recent complaint about the use of “Magical Sky Pixie.” [QUOTE] C’mon **minty green**! It may sound like science fiction now but if it really happened you seriously think NO ONE would try to come up with some other kind of explanation? You’re the one who is generalizing using the term “atheists”. There are all kinds of people out there now who have their own theories about all kinds of things. They are not going to just sit around and accept what the bible says!!! ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/30 "2002-08-15T20:40:46Z")
I think **MEBuckner** said it best, in the thread **El\_Kabong** linked to earlier: > [@](#): > > Yes, if all the born-again Christian up and vanished into thin air overnight, and events as described in the Book of Revelation began occuring, I think I would definitely have to believe in God at that point. That’s one of the things that have irritated me in hearing the Left Behind books described (I admit I haven’t read them myself)–the idea that the people “left behind” wouldn’t all immediately “get it”–that you’d have to have little bands of the newly converted running around witnessing to everyone, with most people apparently just shrugging their shoulders and saying “Oh, well, it must have been the ozone layer”. It pretty much portrays all non-Christians as being really, really dense. IOW, heck yeah, if I saw the son of man coming in power and glory in the clouds and millions of fundies disappearing, I would change my mind about Christianity. I’d become a believer, go through all the trials, get beheaded\* for refusing to take the mark. And the first thing I’d do when I got to heaven would be to ask God why the evidence for Christianity was so slim, and how a fair and just God could condemn a person to eternal torture simply because after honestly examining the evidence they came to the wrong conclusion. - Yes, I saw “Thief in the Night” in my church youth group back in the 70’s 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/31 "2002-08-15T20:41:53Z")
> [@](#): > > dreamer, the Bible also says God will send them a strong delusion so they will not believe that the Bible predicted this, and they will take the mark The Bible says no such thing. Rev. 13:14 syas that the second beast will deceive many into believing in the first beast through miracles, but that’s standard tactics from the Demonic Beast Handbook. > [@](#): > > 13:14 > And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. > > 13:15 > And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. > > 13:16 > And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: BTW, the Rapture is not a Biblical doctrine. The verses quoted in the OP refer to the Final Judgement, but the Rapture is a purely 20th century concept and the word itself is found nowhere in the Bible. moreover, the OP and other fundies are not aware that apocalyptic [literature](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/primary/white.html) was common in the early Jewish tradition. It was a literary genre that used symbolism and coded language to condemn the foreign invaders who conquered Israel, asuring the Jews that a redeemr would come who would free their nation. The [Revelation of St, John](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/revelation/white.html) was written as a condemnation of the Roman imperial state that oppressed and persecuted the Early Church. It was not written to be taken literally, but to be understood by those who had been clued into its symbolism. > [@](#): > > At the center of it all is the recognition of how Revelation is depicting the Roman Empire as the Great Whore, with the Emperor as the seven-headed “beast from the sea,” who are the ones carrying out Satan’s war against God on earth. So even Vision IV is carrying out the implications of the central scenes in Vision III. This made most clear when we are told explicitly that the Great Whore is Babylon, who is seated on the Beast with seven heads, as seven hills (17.9). This is both a clear reference to the “seven hills of Rome” and a reference back to the seven-headed beast of Rev. 13.3-10. Then it tells that the seven heads are seven kings (17.9-10), which finally give us the real clue that the “beast” is the Roman emperor himself. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/32 "2002-08-15T20:50:33Z")
Sorry, Dreamer, but in spite of your protests, I’m getting a really strong “You guys wouldn’t believe no matter what happens” vibe from you. It’s simply not true. If some convincing evidence came along, I would definitely consider it. And no, quoting Revelations is not convincing proof. (Read: circular reasoning). ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/33 "2002-08-15T20:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > As I said I believe this will one day happen and because of that I also believe these scriptures as well - > > Revelation 13:3 > I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; > > Revelation 13:7 > It was also given to him to make WAR WITH THE SAINTS and to OVERCOME them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. > > Revelation 13:8 > All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has NOT been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. Of course, you realize that there’s a variety of interpretations of what exactly the book of Revelation means, even within the fundie community. Me (and I’m a Catholic, mind you), tend to subscribe to the mindset that Revelation represents the larger cosmological struggle between good and evil. These events **might** in the specific come to pass in the future, but they represent the larger struggle that people go through between accepting or rejecting God. (I.e., for example, the “Mark of the Beast” section suggests that a world tyrant would demand obedience in exchange for market participation, but there’s a larger moral issue of selling out one’s morals in exchange for worldly survival. Politicians and corporate-types do that all the time.) By the way, there’s a BIG catch in your interpretation of Thessalonians: > [@](#): > > According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. **For the Lord himself will come down from heaven** , with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. OK, do you see it yet? The problem is that you’re assuming that this event will happen **before** the traditional “apocalypse” of Revelation, culminating in Christ’s second coming (at which point the world as we know it ends). I’m going to assume you’re going by the “seven year” theory, which literally follows Revelation in holding that (if I’m remembering my Tim LaHaye correctly)\*, that once the Jews reclaim the Holy Land, the clock to the parousia starts ticking. Point is, it would go in this order: rapture, rise of antichrist, disasters, Christ’s return. **Problem** : nothing in Thessalonians (or the other passages, for that matter) state that this isn’t a description of the Second Coming itself. Read it again: “The Lord himself will come down from heaven…” Smells a _lot_ like the second coming to me. We have no indication that Christ intended to make a cameo appearance sometime between the Ascension and the Parousia, especially since it’s implied that Christ’s return means armaggedon, the end. In other words, Paul is giving (or, if you wanna get picky, it’s _possible_ Paul is giving) a description of the second coming, at which point he awakens the dead, and the living join them for the Last Judgment.\*\* - OK, I admit I read the first eight _Left Behind_ books. I dropped it and I’m not going back. Besides the poor theology, the writing has gotten so horrific that it tends to be far more dialogue than narrative, to the point where you can’t tell who’s speaking. \*\* At which point, the newly-raised Michaelangelo says “Hey, this isn’t how I painted it!” ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/34 "2002-08-15T20:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > dreamer, does this answer your question? Yes \*\*fluiddruid \*\*, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/35 "2002-08-15T21:04:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > And no, quoting Revelations is not convincing proof. (Read: circular reasoning). Yep, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/36 "2002-08-15T21:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > It may sound like science fiction now but if it really happened you seriously think NO ONE would try to come up with some other kind of explanation? I think that, given sufficient time to rule out alternative hypotheses (e.g., they’re all hiding under the bed), virtually nobody would would maintain that something other than the Rapture has occurred. The precise mechanism of said Rapture would probably be subject to very lively debate, of course. Let’s hope the SDMB hamster gets Left Behind too, because I’m gonna be all over GD if anything like that ever happens. And like **blowero** , I get a strong vibe of “You guys wouldn’t believe no matter what happens” in your repeated assertions to the contrary. Despite my own attempts to get you to offer a reasonable alternative explanation to account for the miracle, all you have done is assert that alternative explanations would be widely accepted. Sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/37 "2002-08-15T21:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > It may sound like science fiction now but if it really happened you seriously think NO ONE would try to come up with some other kind of explanation? I think that, given sufficient time to rule out alternative hypotheses (e.g., they’re all hiding under the bed), virtually nobody would maintain that something other than the Rapture has occurred. The precise mechanism of said Rapture would probably be subject to very lively debate, of course. Let’s hope the SDMB hamster gets Left Behind too, because I’m gonna be all over GD if anything like that ever happens. And like **blowero** , I get a strong vibe of “You guys wouldn’t believe no matter what happens” in your repeated assertions to the contrary. Despite my own attempts to get you to offer a reasonable alternative explanation to account for the miracle, all you have done is assert that alternative explanations would be widely accepted. Sorry, but I have a hard time accepting that assertion without an alternative hypothesis that would make as much sense as “Gosh, I guess **dreamer** was right all along.” One of the hallmarks of a scientific theory is its testability. If fundamentalists tell everyone the Rapture is coming, then something happens that looks exactly like the Rapture happens, that’s pretty damn good evidence that the Rapture has in fact occurred. That predictive power makes for a much more readily-accepted theory than “Christians are all made of neutrinos” or “Christians are really, really good at hiding.” ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/38 "2002-08-15T21:12:37Z")
The second coming! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/39 "2002-08-15T21:15:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adam yax \* > \*\* > > The true believers don’t want to think that all their praying didn’t give them any sort of advantage. Of course we also know that if you surrender yourself to Christ on your deathbed, that is supposed to be good enough. Once I see people going up to heaven, that is the point I may consider christianity. \*\* I think it is arrogant to assume one group of christians will go up to heaven over another. I don’t think fundies have a better shot at making it into heaven. After all they could be severly misinterpreting the bible. I’m not really trying to argue this, but I do find it a shame that there are “degrees” of believing in a christian god among some christians. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/40 "2002-08-15T21:27:33Z")
All right, according to my New American Bible, at the introduction to the Book of Revelation, THIS is what it was written for: > [@](#): > > The Book of Revelations cannot be adequately comprehended except against the historical background which occasioned its writing. Like the Book of Daniel, and other apocalypses, **it was composed as resistance literature to meet a crisis. The book itself suggests that the crisis was ruthless persecution of the early church by the Roman authorities; the harlot Babylon symbolizes pagan Rome** Bolding is mine. Also said: > [@](#): > > Symbolic descriptions are **not to be taken as literal descriptions** , nor is the symbolism capable of being pictured realistically. > [@](#): > > The cries for vengeance that sound so harsh on the lips of Christian martyrs are in fact **literary devices** the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion, which will be severely punished by God Again, bolding is my own. It appears then, that Revelation, like much of the Bible, is an allegory, a symbolic story to press forward a point, or a message. In this case, it seems, that persecuting others for their beliefs is a really REALLY bad idea. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=3)