# Would the Rapture Be Proof Enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059 "2002-08-15T17:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/101 "2002-08-16T16:55:26Z")
Does church history mean nothing to modern Christians? The Christian faith was around for over 1800 years without the concept of the rapture of the church, why do you think Darby was right when 1800 years of history and theology never mentioned the concept? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/102 "2002-08-16T16:59:58Z")
I like the Living Bible translation a bit better… \*\*2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 \*\* _“As for the work this man of rebellion and hell will do when he comes, it is already going on, but he himself will not come until the one who is holding him back steps out of the way. Then this wicked one will appear, whom the Lord Jesus will burn up with the breath of his mouth and destroy by his presence when he returns. This man of sin will come as Satan’s tool, full of satanic power, and will trick everyone with strange demonstrations, and will do great miracles. He will completely fool those who are on their way to hell because they have said “no” to the truth; they have refused to believe it and love it, and let it save them, so God will allow them to believe lies with all their hearts, and all of them will be justly judged for believing falsehood, refusing the truth, and enjoying their sins.”_ God cannot force anyone to believe anything, and Satan will be doing what he does best, but it’s still an individual choice. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/103 "2002-08-16T17:18:06Z")
**Dreamer** , you do know that the Living Bible isn’t a translation, but a paraphrase that distorts the actual language of the Bible. Kenneth Taylor rewrote the American Standard Bible into simple English so his children could understand it. He consulted no Hebrew or Greek original sources, and he phrased his version to reflect a fundamentalist, evangelical point of view. I have a _Koine_ Greek New Testament[sup]\*[sup] at home. I’ll check it tonight and see what the verse actually says. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/104 "2002-08-16T17:21:00Z")
I’m curious what **zev** and **Polycarp** think about this. I don’t know if you two have read any of this thread but if so I’d be interested to know your feelings on the subject. **zev** , since the Jewish people are still awaiting the return of the Messiah, how is he suppossed to appear? How will you know it is HIM? **Polycarp** , do you believe in the rapture? What is your take on it and the tribulation? ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/105 "2002-08-16T17:31:19Z")
Ladies and gentlemen, we now present: **Duelling bible translations!** The New International Version: > [@](#): > > For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. So, God sent the delusion. Interesting. The New American Standard version: > [@](#): > > For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. Now, God sends them a deluding influence. King James has this to say: > [@](#): > > And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Strong delusions now, so that people believe the lie. Fascinating. Whatever the case, it seems clear that God is sending delusions to people, in order to help them believe Satan’s lies. God and Satan are in cahoots yet again. Why are these delusions necessary? If Satan is such a force to be reckoned with, wouldn’t his lies be good enough by themselves? If God hadn’t sent the delusion, and people saw the truth, wouldn’t they believe in God, which is, from what I gather, a good thing? Repenting, coming to God, that’s what this whole Christianity thing is about, right? So why is God helping Satain dupe people who might otherwise have been saved? Can you see how this might all seem just a bit silly to those of us who don’t feel the need to base our lives on faith? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/106 "2002-08-16T17:34:29Z")
No **gobear** , I did not know that, but the NIV is not that far from the Living Bible so it doesn’t seem a “distortion” to me. ::awaiting the Greek interpretation:: ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/107 "2002-08-16T17:48:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*I’m curious what **zev** and **Polycarp** think about this. > > **zev** , since the Jewish people are still awaiting the return of the Messiah, how is he suppossed to appear? How will you know it is HIM? > \*\* Maimonides, in his _Mishneh Torah_, spells out some of the details. If you know how to read Hebrew, you can see it [here](http://www1.snunit.k12.il/kodesh/mtr/mlci011.html). In Chapter 11 of the “Laws of Kings” he writes (translation mine, as is the text in brackets)… In subsection 1 he writes… > [@](#): > > The King messiah will arise, restore the Davidic dynasty as it was, will re-build the Temple, gather in the diaspora, restore the laws [of the Torah] as they were before, bring sacrifices, re-instate the sabbatical and Jubilee years as are written in the Torah… In subsection 3 he writes > [@](#): > > Do not think that the messiah has to perform signs or wonders, create new things, raise the dead, or do any similar things. This is not the case, for Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest sages of the Mishna thought that Bar Koziva [Bar Kochba] was the messiah [even though he didn’t perform any miracles] until he was killed… In subsection 4, he gets down to some details… > [@](#): > > If a king should arise from the House of David, who conducts himself in the manner [prescribed by] the Torah, and who busies himself with the commandments as David his father, as contained in the Written and Oral Torah, and he causes all of Israel to follow him and fights wars for God, he is a presumptive messiah. If he succeeds, and rebuilds the Temple, and gathers in the exiles, he is the definite messiah… So, in short, Maimonides gives us a list of tasks that the messiah must accomplish. Since no one (to date) has done this, we know the messiah has not come. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/108 "2002-08-16T18:48:14Z")
Dreamer, why would god want to trick people when he’s been trying to recruit them all this time? I guess I’m confused as to why an entity who has been tirelessly recruiting for all these years would suddenly say that he DOESN’T want people to see the light and would just let satan win when it really counts. I also want to know why you, or anyone, who believes in (and strives for)goodness in the world would worship a diety who would pull a dirty trick like that. What good could possibly come of it? How come he wouldn’t just prove himself to all of us and save everyone? I know you probably don’t have the answers (or you’d share them with the rest of the class!), but you must question the worth of your diety to the world in general, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/109 "2002-08-16T18:54:49Z")
Now what if the “disillusionment” is the Kick Ass Alien theory? What if God “allows” people to be swayed (by their own choice) because they can see these aliens in front of their face and instead of choosing God they choose to believe what the aliens say. They could have quite a convincing story about creation or evolution, they could even say that they created us. Like I said before God can’t force you to believe in him so in order for us to have the choice there must be other choices to choose from. It says in **Revelation 16:13-14** "_Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are **spirits of demons performing miraculous signs** and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty"_ So if “spirits of demons” were walking around claiming to be aliens and “performing miraculous signs” then I would see that as a strong delusion, but you would have to decide for yourself to believe them or believe in God after the whole rapture thing has happened and your still not decided. Thank you **zev** for answering my question. I do have other questions I would like to ask you sometime but I don’t feel this forum is the place to do that. I highly respect you and wouldn’t want you to think I’m being disrespectful for my curiosity. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/110 "2002-08-16T19:02:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > Thank you **zev** for answering my question. I do have other questions I would like to ask you sometime but I don’t feel this forum is the place to do that. I highly respect you and wouldn’t want you to think I’m being disrespectful for my curiosity. 🙂 \*\* You’re welcome and thank _you_ for the compliment. In any event, I don’t think you were being disrepectful at all. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/111 "2002-08-16T19:07:16Z")
Upon reading my last post I have to wonder how funny and bizarre this must seem to some of you. It is out there, I admit, but so are many of the bible stories and prophecies and it really does take a large amount of faith to believe it. So, I have alot of faith. What can I say? I just hope someone gets all this stuff on video because it would make quite the Blockbuster Hit!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/112 "2002-08-16T19:21:56Z")
Dreamer said, “Now what if the “disillusionment” is the Kick Ass Alien theory? What if God “allows” people to be swayed (by their own choice) because they can see these aliens in front of their face and instead of choosing God they choose to believe what the aliens say. They could have quite a convincing story about creation or evolution,they could even say that they created us.” Of course, given a choice between something visible and something invisible, the visible will win out. Why wouldn’t it? But then we’d hold the aliens to the same standard of scientific proof we hold religion to (creation-wise). Are you saying that you’d believe in an invisible god before you’d believe in a tangible, three-dimensional alien? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/113 "2002-08-16T19:27:13Z")
“Upon reading my last post I have to wonder how funny and bizarre this must seem to some of you.” —Which is remarkably astute and level-headed of you. Remember back whenm those cultiest killed themslelves in Calif. a few years ago? I saw a religious leader on TV saying, “Those people believed that a flying saucer was going to transcend them into heaven after they killed themselves. That’s insane! Everyone _knows_ the only way you get ascended into heaven is when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to earth and the graves give up their dead!” At which, my head exploded. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/114 "2002-08-16T19:31:37Z")
Because **Echo Kitty** the “invisible God” through his word, told me that these guys were coming, so if they showed up and did as the bible says, then how could I _not_ believe God? ---
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/115 "2002-08-16T19:52:42Z")
For the record, I don’t believe in the rapture. But I do think about whether it would even be noticeable. Most people who believe in the rapture also believe in that eye of the needle stuff. If they’re correct about both, it may not be much more than a statistical blip - a year where there are more mysterious disappearences than usual… perhaps it would draw a comment on a slow news night, if anything. There’s no reason to think, though, that a rapture happening (recognized or no) necessitates anything else in Xtian doctrine. Even if such an event were to blow apart our scientific model of the universe, it doesn’t mean that the only rational thing to do is to seat the entire package of modern Jesus-freakiness in its place. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/116 "2002-08-16T20:08:46Z")
I dunno dreamer, it _does_ say that God sends the delusion; it doesn’t seem to be their choice at the time. I figure He has given them enough chances and finally gives up . ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/117 "2002-08-16T20:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I know I’ve got a place in Heaven And how exactly do you know this for sure? This is what us Catholics call the “sin of presumption”. NO ONE knows. ONLY GOD the FATHER. Not even Christ himself. ---
**Author:** ![EchoKitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EchoKitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EchoKitty)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/118 "2002-08-16T20:55:27Z")
Dreamer said, “Because Echo Kitty the “invisible God” through his word, told me that these guys were coming, so if they showed up and did as the bible says, then how could I not believe God?” How do you know if these guys are REALLY aliens or “fake” aliens sent by god to fuck with your mind? How do you know?? Is god gonna whisper in your ear (and your ear alone, it appears) and say, “Dreamer, this is just a prank. This is gonna confuse all the heathens…I’ll be by in a little bit to pick you up”? You would refuse to believe your own senses on the outside chance that your diety is going to communicate with you and pick you for his team? Whoaaaaa…you’re freaking me out. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/119 "2002-08-16T21:06:45Z")
New American Bible: > [@](#): > > Therefore, God is sending upon them a perverse spirit which leads them to give credence to falsehood so that all who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evildoing will be so condemned. Make of that what you will. Of course, it could just mean that people those who act like assholes are on their own. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059/120 "2002-08-16T21:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Most people who believe in the rapture also believe in that eye of the needle stuff. If they’re correct about both, it may not be much more than a statistical blip - a year where there are more mysterious disappearences than usual… perhaps it would draw a comment on a slow news night, if anything. Further proof, as if more were needed, that keeping up my subscription to _Fortean Times_ is absolutely essential. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-rapture-be-proof-enough/124059.md?page=7)