# Would the US have the moral strength to fend off secession now **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 5, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326 "2018-07-05T13:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/21 "2018-07-05T18:40:51Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I have doubts that Trump and company wouldn’t see it as an opportunity to cement their own position. Hold on a sec. Isn’t Trump a fascist tyrant AND the next Hitler according to the left? The logical conclusion of that is Trump views America has his personal Empire. If that’s true, do you think he’s gonna let blue states go \*anywhere \*without crushing them into submission with an iron fist? Would Hitler let ANY of his territory go willingly? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/22 "2018-07-05T19:15:00Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How much income does the treasury lose if NY and California leave the union? > > Wouldn’t that be a factor? There REALLY is no simple answer to this, it depends on all of those pesky details of secession that no one in favor of secession actually wants to address. For example, if seceding states keep US citizenship, then they still owe US income tax. Since the seceding states are now separate countries, the US can now impose import/export duties on them as well as road use fees and duties. Most payments from the US directly to the states would stop, but individuals would probably still be drawing social security although the whole situation is complex. The states would probably be required to take part of the US’s debt with them as part of the price of leaving, and might also need to pay to buy US federal government property (like 45% of California’s land). Taxes on individuals moving between states or working in and out of the US suddenly get quite complicated. For a narrower look: people like to harp on California being a ‘donor state’, but a really large chunk of the ‘donor’ money is because people tend to work in California when younger with a high cost of living and high income, then retire to other states when older where cost of living is lower and they’re now on a fixed income. The expenditure isn’t so lopsided when you factor out social security and medicaid. And either this trend would remain despite California leaving (if Calexitfornians stayed on SS and kept US citizenship) or would change radically if Calexitfornians needed to go through immigration to move to the US to retire and/or Calexitfornia took over the role of social security and medicaid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/23 "2018-07-05T19:22:02Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m not sure y’all are quite getting where I’m going with this. > > Moral strength is the ability to define what you believe is right and to move towards that. For the first time, I’m coming to believe that a secessionist movement might not be completely opposed by the federal government. > > So when I speak of moral strength it’s that knowledge of what should be done and having the ability to follow through. I don’t think anyone doubts that the federal government could put down a rebellion among the states…but a peaceful petition? I don’t see how there would ever be a “peaceful secession”. [There are no “blue states”.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_states_and_blue_states#/media/File:Gastner_map_purple_byarea_bycounty.png) > [@](#): > > I have doubts that Trump and company wouldn’t see it as an opportunity to cement their own position. Are you asking about Trump, or the US in general (there will be life after Trump)? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/24 "2018-07-05T19:30:11Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Probably the same as the argument against the conservative parts of Maine, NH, and Vermont from immediately voting to secede from the new country of MaineHampMont and petitioning the US for reentry. Once you start down the path that people have the right to just split off with a simple majority vote, there’s no argument for arguing that US states in particular are special and that counties, cities, neighborhoods, and other reasons should be forbidden to secede under the same logic. That’s fine, I’m not the one with moral objections. The only requirement I see is the ability to become an autonomous entity. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/25 "2018-07-05T19:33:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Probably the same as the argument against the conservative parts of Maine, NH, and Vermont from immediately voting to secede from the new country of MaineHampMont and petitioning the US for reentry. Once you start down the path that people have the right to just split off with a simple majority vote, there’s no argument for arguing that US states in particular are special and that counties, cities, neighborhoods, and other reasons should be forbidden to secede under the same logic. States are recognized as sovereign entities with plenary powers. County and other local entities are subordinate to the states. That is not to say I disagree with how people will act, but there is a distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/26 "2018-07-05T20:00:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If those states vote to secede, there might very well be a civil war (actually, honest to goodness shooting) within the states, and the feds would step in to quell that. Especially in CA, there would be intense fighting on where to draw the boundaries. The eastern part of the state (Central Valley) is, politically, closer to Oklahoma or Kansas than to SF or LA. Maybe it used to be. Looks like the combination of the Hispanic majority and the massive influx of newcomers with no roots in the agriculture industry, have changed the demographics considerably over the past decade or two. Even the few counties with any sizable population that went for Trump did so by rather modest margins. [https://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/california/](https://www.politico.com/2016-election/results/map/president/california/) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/27 "2018-07-05T22:36:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > States are recognized as sovereign entities with plenary powers. County and other local entities are subordinate to the states. > > That is not to say I disagree with how people will act, but there is a distinction. Only under US law; other countries don’t recognize US states as sovereign entities in their own right, and the fact that they didn’t was a significant point in the Civil War. If you accept that US law is valid, then neither states nor counties have any inherent right to secede. If you don’t, then there’s nothing that you accept as valid that recognizes states as sovereign . I don’t see any justification for saying “I accept the part of the law that says that counties are subordinate to the states, but not the part that says that states are subordinate to the federal government”, you’re just arbitrarily picking and choosing what law to look at. Justifying a moral argument with legal technicalities is pretty shaky too. If you want to explicitly throw out US law, you don’t get to turn right around and appeal to US law when someone does exactly the same thing to you that you just did to the rest of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/28 "2018-07-05T22:40:46Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > That’s fine, I’m not the one with moral objections. The only requirement I see is the ability to become an autonomous entity. Then you run into the practical problem that you can’t maintain a functioning government, as every time your central government tries to do something that annoys part of the population (like gun laws, abortion laws, civil rights laws, taxes, marriage, etc.) then whoever disagrees can just split off to form their own little kingdom to avoid the new law. And then all of the little countries eventually annoy someone who doesn’t believe in secession and get conquered and end up much worse off than when they started. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/29 "2018-07-05T22:41:35Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Only under US law; other countries don’t recognize US states as sovereign entities in their own right, and the fact that they didn’t was a significant point in the Civil War. If you accept that US law is valid, then neither states nor counties have any inherent right to secede. If you don’t, then there’s nothing that you accept as valid that recognizes states as sovereign . I don’t see any justification for saying “I accept the part of the law that says that counties are subordinate to the states, but not the part that says that states are subordinate to the federal government”, you’re just arbitrarily picking and choosing what law to look at. Justifying a moral argument with legal technicalities is pretty shaky too. > > If you want to explicitly throw out US law, you don’t get to turn right around and appeal to US law when someone does exactly the same thing to you that you just did to the rest of the US. You said: > [@](#): > > there’s no argument for arguing that US states in particular are special and that counties, cities, neighborhoods, and other reasons should be forbidden to secede under the same logic. I gave an argument. States are not just the same as counties or cities, and it’s factually incorrect to say so. That does not mean that states have a right to secede, and once secession starts, I don’t expect people to calmly accept that a county isn’t a state and just because a state can secede, that doesn’t mean a county can. But there is a legal argument to be made that a state is a different type of entity than a county or a city. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/30 "2018-07-06T00:06:52Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Then you run into the practical problem that you can’t maintain a functioning government, as every time your central government tries to do something that annoys part of the population (like gun laws, abortion laws, civil rights laws, taxes, marriage, etc.) then whoever disagrees can just split off to form their own little kingdom to avoid the new law. And then all of the little countries eventually annoy someone who doesn’t believe in secession and get conquered and end up much worse off than when they started. In general we have mind-your-own-business gun laws and abortion laws, and if either bothers you, you already don’t live here. It’s not a hotbed of civil unrest. This would be about trade. A lot of this process has been explored already by conservatives when they were expecting Obama’s jackbooted thugs, and it will be fine, using those arguments and their own actions to justify the process. If, in fact, it has to be justified. It might just be an exercise in self-determination, to which a state has an inherent right. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/31 "2018-07-06T02:33:17Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I was thinking of adding this to the New Civil War thread but that one has, predictably, devolved into the military/civilian routine and it seemed non-productive. > > My thesis is this: Do the institutions/leadership of the US have the moral strength shown by Lincoln et al to oppose secession? I’m not certain it does. > > Now, get me, I’m not proposing that an American uprising with violent secession wouldn’t be resisted. If we’re good at anything it’s fighting back. > > But what about peaceful secession? If the west coast - California, Oregon and Washington - for example petitioned congress to secede from the Union would Congress and the other states deny that petition? There’s theory that a state could secede through approval of Congress and a majority of the states approval. > > But my real issue is whether the country as a whole would resist a heartfelt desire to leave. A 2017 Zogby poll showed that 68% of Americans would be open to the idea of allowing secession (though much fewer approved of it for THEIR state). > > [New Poll On Americans' Support For Secession, Webinar On Tribal Analytics, And Trump Report Card - John Zogby Strategies](http://johnzogbystrategies.com/new-poll-on-americans-support-for-secession-webinar-on-tribal-analytics-and-trump-report-card/) > > It’s an interesting question in these politically divisive times. Hopefully the military realizes that the Balkanization of the US would, in time, be such a strategic error and danger that preventing the Balkanization would justify Shermanesque tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/32 "2018-07-06T03:32:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I gave an argument. States are not just the same as counties or cities, and it’s factually incorrect to say so. That does not mean that states have a right to secede, and once secession starts, I don’t expect people to calmly accept that a county isn’t a state and just because a state can secede, that doesn’t mean a county can. You gave a bad argument that doesn’t actually work on a fundamental level and that completely ignores the first part of the sentence that you partially quoted. Also I never made the claim that states are the same as counties or cities, so arguing as though I did is making a strawman argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/33 "2018-07-06T03:33:52Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > In general we have mind-your-own-business gun laws and abortion laws, and if either bothers you, you already don’t live here. It’s not a hotbed of civil unrest. This would be about trade. And you seriously don’t think that any of the people who like the current mind-your-own business gun laws would rather live in the US than join Canada, which has federal gun laws which are distinctly not mind-your-own business? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/34 "2018-07-06T03:51:49Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You gave a bad argument that doesn’t actually work on a fundamental level and that completely ignores the first part of the sentence that you partially quoted. Also I never made the claim that states are the same as counties or cities, so arguing as though I did is making a strawman argument. Eh. You said what you said, and I quoted it. I quoted the whole paragraph the first time. If you want to change what you said, that’s fine. But states are not the same as counties. Counties are administrative sub-units of states. The states are not administrative subunits of the country. There is a good reason why you can’t say: If a state can do X, then a city or county can do X. Our legal system doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/35 "2018-07-06T04:54:55Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > And you seriously don’t think that any of the people who like the current mind-your-own business gun laws would rather live in the US than join Canada, which has federal gun laws which are distinctly not mind-your-own business? Of course, but there are other choices to make. Picture a blue wave in 2018, and a Republican resurgence in 2020, and we have little to look forward to but more gridlock with escalating aggression. The firebrands rule the day. Meanwhile, we common folk can bond over trade, drug imports, immigration reform\* and fiscal responsibility all day long, and there are compromises to be found on more personal matters, as has been the custom here for ages. When the choice is that governance from the common ground, or this absolute circus, this heading meekly into modern civil war, it’s not a difficult one. \*Immigration Reform = fixing a system that is capricious, disorganized, and unaccountable. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/36 "2018-07-06T13:41:00Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m not sure y’all are quite getting where I’m going with this. > > Moral strength is the ability to define what you believe is right and to move towards that. For the first time, I’m coming to believe that a secessionist movement might not be completely opposed by the federal government. > > So when I speak of moral strength it’s that knowledge of what should be done and having the ability to follow through. I don’t think anyone doubts that the federal government could put down a rebellion among the states…but a peaceful petition? I have doubts that Trump and company wouldn’t see it as an opportunity to cement their own position. Or in other words … who in Congress currently can you envision objecting to California leaving? I’m sure they’d make tut-tut remarks about preserving the Union, but the prospect of those 55 reliably blue electoral votes not being involved in the presidential elections must make their head swim. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/37 "2018-07-06T15:19:58Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Or in other words … who in Congress currently can you envision objecting to California leaving? I’m sure they’d make tut-tut remarks about preserving the Union, but the prospect of those 55 reliably blue electoral votes not being involved in the presidential elections must make their head swim. I actually expect that the most fierce opposition would come from Democrats in other states, who wouldn’t want to be relegated to near-permanent minority status. (a bit like the stories about crabs pulling each other back down when one tries to escape) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/38 "2018-07-06T15:46:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > …Moral strength is the ability to define what you believe is right and to move towards that. **For the first time** , I’m coming to believe that a secessionist movement might not be completely opposed by the federal government… Umm. Bolding mine. You think the current administration has morals? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/39 "2018-07-06T16:53:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. You said what you said, and I quoted it. I quoted the whole paragraph the first time. If you want to change what you said, that’s fine. But states are not the same as counties. And if you look at what I said, even the out-of-context fragment that you quoted, I didn’t actually make the claim that states are the same as counties that you keep pretending I did. It’s not changing what I said to point out that you’re making a blatantly false claim about what I said. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326/40 "2018-07-06T21:21:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The moral strength to resist secession would only come into play in the presence of enough bloodymindedness in favor of it. Who and where do you see a secession drive \*realistically \*happening, never mind jokes about the Texit? This. The Civil War happened because the South was filled with enough people in positions of leadership who were convinced that secession was a right states had, and willing to precipitate a fight over it if need be, and the North was filled with enough people in positions of leadership who were convinced that secession was not a right states had, and were willing to precipitate a fight over the effort if need be. Asking if we have the second half of that equation without questioning if we have the first half is very much begging the question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-us-have-the-moral-strength-to-fend-off-secession-now/817326.md?page=3)