# Would the 'Vulcan Grab' Really Work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197 "2013-08-14T06:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/41 "2014-01-01T17:11:43Z")
[Vasovagal response](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response) > [@](#): > > Any painful or unpleasant stimuli, such as: > > ``` > Trauma (such as hitting one's funny bone) > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/42 "2014-01-01T18:17:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Vasovagal response](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasovagal_response) Also in the martial arts context: [chokehold](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold). This is the answer to the OP: yes there is a martial arts analogue. See also [triangle choke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_choke) and [arm triangle choke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_triangle_choke). For details on Judo technique google [Shime-waza](http://judoinfo.com/chokes1.htm). From the internet: > [@allegedly E. K. Koiwai](#): > > How safe is choking in Judo? Almost every judoist with experience has been choked either to submission or unconsciousness. It is not unusual to have the unconscious contestant, after revival, look around to find out where he is. He still wants to continue to fight not realizing that he had lost the contest by shime-waza. > > …Basically, except for one form of shime-waza, hadaka-jime, the pressure is applied to the lateral side of the neck which the anatomists call the “carotid triangle” [How Safe is Choking in Judo? | Judo Info](http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm) I’ve had chokeholds applied to me which I would guess would have caused me to pass out if I had not tapped my partner to ease up. This is a standard component of Judo. There are defenses for it of course and some of the Judo techniques require manipulation of the Judo uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/43 "2014-01-01T18:40:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It’s been a long time since I’ve read any, but I vaguely recall Doc Savage being able to do something similar. Anyone remember? Four months too late, but yes. There was one instance where the text simply referred to Doc rendering someone unconscious by “pressing on a secret nerve”. This was before Doc sent him off to his secret hospital for brain surgery to remove his criminal tendencies, which even as a child struck me as pretty invasive. There was another technique he used more than once in the books I read where Doc could press on nerves in the neck and leave the victim paralyzed until Doc, or someone else with equal skill, released him, leaving the victim with a bad headache and stiff neck. IIRC, the author attributed it to chiropractic techniques. There is no technique in martial arts that I am aware of that can do this other than by happenstance. This is FoaF stuff, but my cousin-in-law the doctor told me once that he was taking the carotid pulse on an elderly patient, and the patient fell over dead. I don’t recall the cause of death, but apparently the pressure on the vagus nerve and/or carotid artery was enough to cause the patient to go into arrest. This was an elderly man with health issues bad enough to refer him to my cousin-in-law, most of whose practice were patients who were very ill (he is a pulmonologist). FWIW. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/44 "2014-01-01T18:42:52Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > An ancient enough fanwank is indistinguishable from canon. It’s not a fanwank; it came straight from the mouth of Leonard Nimoy himself. He rebelled against knocking out Bad Kirk with the butt of his phaser, saying it was a holdover from Westerns. He then told Leo Penn, director of “The Enemy Within,” that Vulcans could render someone unconscious through (a) their physical (pinching) strength, (b) knowledge of human anatomy, and (c) what he called a peculiar Vulcan “vibe.” And lo! The Spock pinch was born! It’s been years since I read this, but I’m pretty sure it was in Gerrold’s book _ **The World of Star Trek** _. ---
**Author:** ![cdnirish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@cdnirish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cdnirish)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/45 "2014-01-01T23:31:57Z")
Ok, well a lot of people are likely going to call “bullshit” on this, but here goes. After doing a little research, what the doctor was likely referring to, and I remembered as “the vaso-something-or-other”, was that the blow somehow stimulated the vagus nerve, triggering a vaso-vagal response in the body. This is from WiseGEEK: "Vagus is Latin for “wandering,” and it is an accurate description of this nerve, which emerges at the back of the skull and meanders in a leisurely way through the abdomen, with a number of branching nerves coming into contact with the heart, lungs, voicebox, stomach, and ears, among other body parts. The vagus nerve carries incoming information from the nervous system to the brain, providing information about what the body is doing, and it also transmits outgoing information which governs a range of reflex responses. When the vagus nerve is stimulated, the response is often a reduction in heart-rate or breathing. In some cases, excessive stimulation can cause someone to have what is known as a vaso-vagal response, appearing to fall into a faint or coma because his or her heart rate and blood pressure drop so much. [What is the Vagus Nerve? (with pictures)](http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-vagus-nerve.htm) WiseGEEK wasn’t the only source I looked at, but this is one of the few that put an explanation in something approaching plain English. I didn’t want to get bogged down in medical terminology any more than I suspect any of you do. Besides, if I was to throw out a lot of medical mumbo-jumbo around this, the “baffle them with bullshit” factor would likely go up in some of your minds. I know I said it was the “lower leg”, and the research I did showed the vagus nerve itself only runs down as low as the lower abdomen as far as the genital area. My only defense for that is that when I said “many years ago”,this happened when I was in my mid-20s, and I’m 52 now. I can’t remember exactly where I hit, because all I truly remember was hitting the lower part of the body, pain, waking up on the floor and being groggy for hours. I may well have hit one of those “branching nerves” that is somehow connected to the Vagus nerve…I’m not a doctor, and all I can go by is what I was remember being told in the hospital all those many years ago. It’s never happened to me again, and I’ve had no lasting ill effects from it that I’m aware of, so the memory has faded over the years. Chalk it up to getting old. As for why MMA fighters don’t use this in fights, the fact that hitting this nerve anywhere slows down the heart, drops the blood pressure and can close off the larynx could cause permanent damage and even death if hit hard enough. While doing the research, I came across sites that advocate showing how to use striking this nerve at the neck to incapacitate and even kill an opponent. If someone in MMA (or any professional combat sport, for that matter) started using this as a way to win fights, he or she would at the very least be tossed out, and likely charged with attempted murder. All of this may be some of the source material for the “Vulcan pinch” - the whole “kill or incapacitate someone with a single blow to the neck” story has been around for a very long time. And where Spock used to pinch, at the shoulder just beside the neck, is close to where the Vagus nerve runs, near the jugular and carotid arteries via the carotid sheath. [Vagus nerve - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve) Let the cries of “liar” and “bullshit” begin. The only defense I have for my earlier post is that hey, it happened to me personally, not a “friend of a friend of my fifth cousins fourth sister”, and in the great scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter if you believe me or not. As far as I’ m concerned, what happened in Vagus, stays in Vagus. (I had to make the joke before someone else did.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/46 "2014-01-01T23:46:54Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Of course it works, but you have to be Vulcan. Could a Romulan learn? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/47 "2014-01-01T23:49:07Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Fanwank - it is not just the physical pinch, but includes a variation of the Vulcan tactile telepathic ability. Could a Romulan learn **that?** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/48 "2014-01-01T23:55:39Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Very much tangential, Cecil covered the question of a death-pinch a while back: [Is the “ninja death touch” real? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2509/is-the-ninja-death-touch-real) > [@](#): > > Case reports suggest that incidents like the above are mostly accidents, more often than not unrelated to martial arts training or theory. The question remains: Can some dim mak practitioners achieve these results at will? I’m skeptical, but sometimes you have to wonder. In a 1999 report in the _Journal of Sports Medicine and Physical Fitness,_ C. Terry et al tested a dozen participants in a demonstration of kyusho jitsu pressure-point techniques intended to produce “knockouts.” Experts hit the volunteers with successive blows at prescribed spots, e.g., just above the right wrist, just above the right elbow, and in the middle of the back. The recurring result: a “period of unresponsiveness” lasting from 11 to 55 seconds. The tests, which included EEGs and the like, showed no loss of blood flow to the brain or other obvious physiological cause. Were the KOees going into a hypnosislike trance or faking it? The authors think not, commenting, “The exact mechanism for this phenomenon remains uncertain.” I’m not about to invoke chi and meridians, but it’s possible there’s more going on here than we currently understand. > > — Cecil Adams So, there might be “knockout points”. That’s from 2004 – does anyone know if further research ever was done? ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/49 "2014-01-02T00:36:59Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Or Data. Odo also did the neck-pinch in an epsiode of DS9. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197/50 "2014-01-02T01:35:05Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Fanwank - it is not just the physical pinch, but includes a variation of the Vulcan tactile telepathic ability. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Could a Romulan learn **that?** I imagine that a Romulan could even learn how to perform mind-melds if they had the same training (preferably since birth) that Vulcans have. After all they’re basically different branches of the same species (something I think isn’t played up nearly enough in Star Trek). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-vulcan-grab-really-work/666197.md?page=2)