# Would the World Have Been Better if Germany Had Won World War I? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183 "2011-01-11T02:39:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/41 "2011-01-11T22:03:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Anyone notice that **Qin Shi Huangdi,** as usual, is not participating in the thread he started? So someone with an identical username wrote post 5? Wow, I didn’t know you were allowed to have the same username as another person. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/42 "2011-01-11T22:27:02Z")
IIRC, it was Germany who aided Lenin and co. in sneaking back into Russia, as they had been in exile for years. They were hoping the Bolsheviks would destablize the new government (Russia had fallen BEFORE WWI was over). The Provisional Government in Russia was pretty weak. In order to avoid the collapse, I think you’d have to avoid Lenin coming in. (Remember – the Bolsheviks were NOT the ones who overthrew the Tsar) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/43 "2011-01-11T22:33:48Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Wild cards. Would the Great Depression still have happened? After all, if the US stayed neutral it would have changed our own manufacturing stance…and if the war in Europe was over quickly they may have been more stable. By the same token, if the war was over quickly in Europe that would mean that a lot of the materials and ability for war would still exist…and the Europeans might not have learned the lessons they learned and still be raring for more. Interesting question. I think part of the cause of the depression was the wartime expansion of manufacturing followed by the post-war contraction of the market for manufactured goods. Without a major war, you would presumedly have had both the supply and demand growing in step at a more natural pace. And I think you’re right that the powers might have been more belligerent in my scenario. The overwhelming destruction of the Great War made everyone wary about fighting. A short war like I imagined wouldn’t have had the same effect - statesmen would have been more willing to risk another war on that scale. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/44 "2011-01-11T22:41:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, it was Germany who aided Lenin and co. in sneaking back into Russia, as they had been in exile for years. They were hoping the Bolsheviks would destablize the new government (Russia had fallen BEFORE WWI was over). > > The Provisional Government in Russia was pretty weak. In order to avoid the collapse, I think you’d have to avoid Lenin coming in. (Remember – the Bolsheviks were NOT the ones who overthrew the Tsar) True. But one of the biggest things the Bolsheviks used in seizing power was their promise to seek an armistice. The Russian people hated the war by 1917 but Germany was asking for terms so extreme the provisional government (and the other factions) were unwilling to accept them and tried to keep fighting. The Bolsheviks were the only ones who were willing to accept peace at any price (and the price was massive - Russia had to surrender a quarter of its population). If the war was already over, there wouldn’t have been this wedge issue that let the Bolsheviks seize power. They would have remained an extremist fringe and the more centrist factions probably would have won the power struggle. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/45 "2011-01-11T22:52:32Z")
And depending on when it all went down it’s actually possible that the Czar would have remained in at least nominal power…possibly as a figure head or possibly in something similar to the position of the British Royal Family. Even if it had all come apart I’m with Nemo…I doubt that, assuming this alternative history didn’t happen after the revolution, the Bolsheviks would have gained control. It was a pretty lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at things) and fairly improbable series of factors that put them in the drivers seat as it was. In the end, how things played out would definitely depend on when all this took place and what the conditions were. If the war ended quickly then Russia might have been able to sue for peace on more equatable terms, and before they started really experiencing systemic collapse. On the other hand, if the war on the Western front ended quickly and Russia decided to fight on, it’s possible that the Germans would have conquered them instead of offering terms. Assuming the Germans actually could have captured Moscow (and I suppose it’s possible depending on how they tried to do it), the Germans may have set up a puppet government and incorporated Russia into the empire. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/46 "2011-01-11T23:54:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is all really interesting but it’s completely irrelevant. How you don’t “get” German humiliation after World War I is baffling. There’s nothing to get. It is fact. Germans felt humiliated by Versailles; that is absolutely true. Read up on a history of Germany in the inter-war years; many Germans had a strong feeling of humiliation and national betrayal. You may not like it, you may think they were wrong or “Hypcritical,” but with regards to the OP’s question it doesn’t matter. What matters is that that sentiment DID exist as the result of Versailles, and that sentiment was the political linchpin for the ascendancy of the National Socialist Party. > > Had Germany won, Versailles doesn’t happen, the humiliation doesn’t happen, and the Nazis don’t happen. History would be totally different. So, France HAS to roll over cause Germans dont have the guts to swallow defeat? What’s that, Germany’s got Aspergers? Why stop at WW1, why not Franco-Prussian war then, that way we all limit it to just one war, involving just two countries. And Germany doesnt take Alsace-Lorraine, that way, no revanchism building up in France, and no special desire to “even it up”. Germany didnt get fucked with the Versailles treaty, it just fucked itself up. And Weimar Republic put on a good show, even before the economic crisis, to not pay up its reparations, hence the Ruhr Occupation. To say that Versailles Treaty shouldnt happen because Germans couldnt swallow defeat is so fucking absurd, that means that every neighboring country Germany had had to surrender after being immediately invaded by Germany, cuz, you know, Germany, they cant take defeat, and if you dont roll over, they might turn Nazi. At least try to make some fucking sense. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/47 "2011-01-11T23:58:47Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think it would have been better-Germany would have learned 9the hard way) that having colonies didn’t pay off. Controlling a bitter and rebellious French population would have been a huge burden-I think the Germans would avoid imposing a huge reparations burden on France. Then they would have treated France just like they treated the Herero or the Belgiums. Germany was in a pretty fucked up mental state, it took two World Wars to wake them up from their delusions of grandeur. Nazism was just the natural son of Prussian militarism. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/48 "2011-01-12T00:04:40Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > So, France HAS to roll over cause Germans dont have the guts to swallow defeat? Dude, seriously, put aside the patriotism and the chest-thumping for a moment. You’re horribly misunderstanding what people are saying here. None of your responses so far have been relevant to the topic the OP is proposing we discuss. The OP is asking if things would have been better had Germany won World War I. Nobody is saying Germany SHOULD have won World War I. Nobody is saying they deserved to. They’re just discussing what would have happened if they had won. It’s just a neat hypothetical question. You don’t have to rush off to the Marne. Calm down. Nobody has said the Versailles Treaty SHOULDN’T have happened. **The question is to speculate as to what would have taken place if it didn’t happen.** We’re just discussing a hypothetical. Relax. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/49 "2011-01-12T00:15:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Dude, seriously, put aside the patriotism and the chest-thumping for a moment. You’re horribly misunderstanding what people are saying here. None of your responses so far have been relevant to the topic the OP is proposing we discuss. > > The OP is asking if things would have been better had Germany won World War I. Nobody is saying Germany SHOULD have won World War I. Nobody is saying they deserved to. They’re just discussing what would have happened if they had won. It’s just a neat hypothetical question. You don’t have to rush off to the Marne. Calm down. > > Nobody has said the Versailles Treaty SHOULDN’T have happened. **The question is to speculate as to what would have taken place if it didn’t happen.** We’re just discussing a hypothetical. Relax. Sorry my neighbor just woke me up in the middle of the night with his TV, I admit I’m in full grouchy mode. I apologize for the harsh words. That said I am no patriot, and assuming the Versailles Treaty is the one and only thing that turned Germany into a Nazi state is a serious flaw in your reasoning. Also there is no reason to believe a Kaiser Germany with no rival on the Continent would be that much better that Nazi Germany. France also served to keep Germany in check (that was the whole reasoning of the British for long, it wasnt off mark). Who’s to say that Kaiser Germany with no counterpower wouldnt have acted in the same ways Nazi Germany did (just look at the treatment of Belgium during WW1)? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/50 "2011-01-12T00:18:27Z")
Perhaps because they didn’t act that way before the war? You seem to be supposing that, having won WWI, this would fundamentally change the nature and actions of Germany (note, I said fundamentally…I have no doubt that Germany would have changed. My guess up thread is they would have become even more aggressively colonially imperialistic). What do you base this on? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/51 "2011-01-12T00:25:25Z")
Kaiser Germany had much of what would constitute Nazi tennets later. They had already dabbled in genocide, massacre of civilian population, and were cpersuaded the world belonged to them. It’s a tragedy the defeat of WW1 didnt amend their ways and just convinced them next time they should try harder. The only difference I would see between real life Nazi Germany and a supremely victorious Reich is less obsession with the Jews. The Holocaust was a truly horrible event, and I’m not trying to lessen its horrors, but in terms of victims, it’s not much compared to the overall casualties of WW2. I’m really not certain that the behavior that led to such massive casualties would necessarily have been any different had the Kaiser stayed in power. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/52 "2011-01-12T00:28:57Z")
Actually, I would say that Tsarist Russia was worse for the Jews than Imperial Germany. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/53 "2011-01-12T00:31:14Z")
While I agree that Germany (as well as pretty much all other European countries) had serious problems in dealing with their Jewish populations (and periodic pogroms, purges and riots in which their citizens would just run amok beating and even killing Jews), I don’t think that the two are comparable at all. IIRC, WWI Germany had quite a few Jewish soldiers in their army…and came no where close to the systematic persecution of Jews. Part of the reason for that systematic persecution was the perception (by nutters like Hitler) that the Jews assisted or contributed to Germany’s loss of the war. The other thing was the rampant communist movement in post war Germany, and the perception that Jews were a major part of that movement in Germany. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/54 "2011-01-12T00:33:41Z")
I dont know if you’re replying to my post Xtisme, but that’s more or less what I was saying. The only massive difference I see between Nazi Germany and the Reich is far less emphasis on the persecution of Jews. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/55 "2011-01-12T00:36:28Z")
I guess I misunderheard you then. Apologies, I thought you were saying something else. I think there are other key differences as well, though. I don’t recall pre-WWI Germany being as focused on things like a command economy, or the other national socialist agendas (my own recollection is they were more a classic colonial imperial power). The social agenda of the Nazis were also markedly different. For the life of me I don’t really see much in common between them, to be honest, except maybe the symbols of Mother Germany stuff. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/56 "2011-01-12T00:46:59Z")
When I was talking about genocide, I was talking about this: > **[Herero and Namaqua genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide)** > > The Herero and Namaqua genocide (or the Herero and Nama genocide) was a campaign of ethnic extermination and collective punishment which was waged against the Herero (Ovaherero) and the Nama in German South West Africa (now Namibia) by the German Empire. It was the first genocide to begin in the 20th century, occurring between 1904 and 1908. > In January 1904, the Herero people, who were led by Samuel Maharero, and the Nama people, who were led by Captain Hendrik Witbooi, rebelled against German c... As for Belgium, I was talking about the"Franc-tireur" fear syndrome which “led” Germany to massacre civilian populations if they suspected a franc-tireur might be around. Really not that much different from Nazi Germany behavior, the latter being (I know, I already said it) a descendant of what constituted the German psyche during WW1. Now, imagine this mutliplied by the fact that Germany has no rival anymore on the Continent, they’re free to do whatever they want, their time to rule has come. Damn, doesnt that sound very close that what Nazi Germany was? P.S: permanent war tends to lead to command economy. As for the imperial Colonial power stuff, yeah, but applied to Europe. Which means the same tactics used against “lowly inferiors” this time used against Europeans. It’s not like restraint was particularily valued. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/57 "2011-01-12T00:47:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > So someone with an identical username wrote post 5? Wow, I didn’t know you were allowed to have the same username as another person. Post 5 was written 1 hour and 22 minutes after the OP, when the ink was barely dry, and the OP-er hasn’t posted since. Every time I check this thread, the OP’s green light hasn’t been on, so he isn’t around much. It’s his MO in most threads, but I’ll shut up about it for now so y’all can carry on with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/58 "2011-01-12T00:59:37Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > That said I am no patriot, and assuming the Versailles Treaty is the one and only thing that turned Germany into a Nazi state is a serious flaw in your reasoning. No, it’s not. The wheels on my car aren’t the only thing that makes it move forward - it also needs an engine, a transmission, a starter, fuel, etc. - but you can’t deny that without the wheels my car wouldn’t be very fast. The stage for the Weimar Republic and the ascendancy of Nazism was set by the conditions that existing after World War I. If those conditions were dramatically different, Germany would have evolved in a dramatically different fashion. > [@](#): > > Also there is no reason to believe a Kaiser Germany with no rival on the Continent would be that much better that Nazi Germany. France also served to keep Germany in check (that was the whole reasoning of the British for long, it wasnt off mark). Who’s to say that Kaiser Germany with no counterpower wouldnt have acted in the same ways Nazi Germany did (just look at the treatment of Belgium during WW1)? For the simple reason that no other European country has ever acted the way Nazi Germany did. Imperial Germany wasn’t terribly nice to Belgium, but its behaviour was consistent with the manner in which occupying armies have treated occupied territories in Europe for centuries. Nazi Germany was uniquely psychotic and its crimes exceeding anything Imperial Germany did by an absolutely gigantic degree. Any European pwoer you can name has done stuff worse than Germany did in Belgium in 1914-1918. England has killed God only knows how many Irish, Spain looted and slaughtered its way across Europe for a century, France’s armies under Napoleon killed who knows how many, and on and on. None became anything like Nazi Germany. The number of people murdered in the “Rape of Belgium” was likely fewer than the number of Jews the Nazis killed \*\*every day \*\*that the Final Solution was in effect - and the Nazis killed a lot of people in addition to Jews. I believe you’re really drastically understating the nature of the Nazis. They aren’t just “imperial Germany but worse to Jews.” Nazism - which, incidentally, completely rejected the legality and legitimacy of the Imperial state - fundamentally rejected the very concept of an external legal rightness that underpinned all European states of the time. Imperial Germany had its power-mad sins, just as England, France, Belgium et al. did (ask the Congolese about the Belgians) but they at least paid some degree of service to the concept of right and wrong, legal and illegal. The Nazis rejected the very concept of an objective right and wrong. Nazi ideology was an ideology of endless warfare; conflict in the eyes of the Nazi NEVER ends. To the Nazi, war was not a means to an end; war was the natural state of the human race, and so for the state, war WAS the end. The purpose of everything was war. There was no right or wrong; there was merely victory and killing. The Kaiser at least tried to come up with justifications. Nazism didn’t justify. It is, frankly, impossible for me to believe any government could have been as bad as Nazi Germany at that time and place. Nazism is pretty much as bad as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/59 "2011-01-12T01:09:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > . Imperial Germany had its power-mad sins, just as England, France, Belgium et al. did (ask the Congolese about the Belgians) Well, that’s my point, Nazi Germany acted in Europe in the worst ways Europe had already acted in its colonies. The difference being that in Europe you could use industrial means for that. Besides, a rival free Continental Europe is not something Germany had ever known, it is bound to multiply a behavior that was already there in Germany. You’re citing medieval history, well keep the mentality and give it factories and you got the Nazis. As for the total war bit, that’s only your take, Nazi Germany didnt live long enough, fortunately, to be in anything else but a state of war. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183/60 "2011-01-12T01:20:02Z")
The Nazis came to power in 1933, so they certainly had years of peace as well as war that they were working in. I agree with Rickjay…the Nazis were an aberration, not an inherent extension of the German people or the Kaiser’s imperial Germany. There were specific circumstances that brought this aspect of the German people (and Europeans in general) that I don’t see occurring had Germany not lost the war. This isn’t to say that other things might not have transpired, but I am just not seeing the similarities. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-the-world-have-been-better-if-germany-had-won-world-war-i/567183.md?page=4)