# Would there be simulated violence in Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481 "2023-05-02T23:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/1 "2023-05-02T23:28:19Z")
If there was a perfect afterlife of unimaginable bliss, happiness, fulfillment etc I’ve always wondered if you could create non sentient people to interact with and if so what you were allowed to do with them. If I wanted to fight crime as a superhero, battle aliens in outer space, re-enact a famous battle or be John Wick fighting the criminal underworld (or any of the fantastical scenarios commonly discussed in ASB) would I be allowed to do that even though it’s of a violent nature despite no real person being harmed? I know the usual theist argument is that you can’t sin in Heaven but is harming virtual people sinful? It would be no different than an extremely advanced video game/simulator which I doubt very many people (believers or otherwise) would call sinful because you’re only interacting with pixels and images so no actual harm is done. It’s also commonly said that you won’t have sinful desires anymore but this ties back into the previous argument. Is the desire to witness and participate in fantastical and fictionalized violence sinful or morally wrong or at least wrong enough that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God wouldn’t let you do it after death? What are your thoughts on the matter? Is there something I’m missing in my argument besides whether or not Heaven exists? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/2 "2023-05-02T23:39:38Z")
Which version of heaven? Which definition of sin? Which religion? And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/3 "2023-05-02T23:41:08Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > is harming _virtual people_ sinful? How do you know they’re p-zombies? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/4 "2023-05-02T23:44:31Z")
I don’t think heaven is about wish fulfillment. You’re just going to be floating around thinking about how “awesome” God is. For eternity. Sounds fun right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/5 "2023-05-02T23:48:28Z")
Assuming we’re talking about the Christian conception of heaven, no I don’t believe this would happen. According to the Bible when you enter heaven much of you base human nature is washed away. You won’t feel pain or sadness anymore, and presumably you also won’t experience boredom or compassion for the people trapped in eternal hellfire either. I strongly doubt anyone in heaven will want to simulate violence for any reason, no matter how cool you’d look while you’re reenacting John Wick 3. What you’re describing sounds more like a Star Trek Holodeck than any popular conception of heaven, since Holodecks were built to specifically cater to physical desires. I’m not sure what religion gives you a holodeck when you die but I’d look into that. Maybe the Mormons can help? I’ve heard their platnum-tier heaven is pretty big on wish fulfillment. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/6 "2023-05-02T23:52:01Z")
If we’re talking about Christian virtues, I wouldn’t think a desire to partake in violence for violence’s sake would land you in heaven in the first place. Vanity isn’t considered a virtue; envy (of heroes or righteous warriors, for example) is one of the traditional cardinal sins. The OP seems to have some other sort of ethics in mind, where “actual harm” is relevant. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/7 "2023-05-02T23:55:58Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > is harming virtual people sinful? For that matter, is harming virtual monsters, or ducks, or tin cans, sinful? If they’re virtual, does it matter? > [@Cmyers1980](#): > > It’s also commonly said that you won’t have sinful desires anymore but this ties back into the previous argument. I think that _some_ kinds of desire to do violence would not be compatible with being in Heaven, but I’m not so sure about _all_. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/8 "2023-05-03T00:20:33Z")
> [@Mr.E](#): > > I’m not sure what religion gives you a holodeck when you die but I’d look into that. That’s a pitch I might actually pause briefly for. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/9 "2023-05-03T00:23:12Z")
Everybody gets the heaven they believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/10 "2023-05-03T00:33:20Z")
I always think questions like these are the best argument against heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/11 "2023-05-03T00:34:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Everybody gets the heaven they believe in. People aren’t good at unintended consequences. Sounds like it’ll just be hell for everyone then. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/12 "2023-05-03T00:43:06Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > […]but is harming virtual people sinful? Westworld, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/13 "2023-05-03T00:51:39Z")
I’m guessing the OP should convert to one of the reborn Norse religions, because what they want is [Valhalla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla) (minus the need to fight in Ragnarok of course). Endless feasts, booze and violence, with zero consequences ( no perma-death or injury). Different eddas and stories also mention gaming, so I presume at least some non-violent entertainment as well. I still suspect that an eternity of it would pale, especially as the assumption tends to be that your mentality is much as it is in life. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/14 "2023-05-03T00:59:40Z")
> [@Mr.E](#): > > What you’re describing sounds more like a Star Trek Holodeck than any popular conception of heaven, since Holodecks were built to specifically cater to physical desires. I’m not sure what religion gives you a holodeck when you die but I’d look into that. Sounds more like an isekai. As far as afterlives go, it’s probably the closest to what the OP wants. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/15 "2023-05-03T01:17:30Z")
Here’s a link to a paper on the topic of the denizens of Heaven’s abilities to see the violence and torment of Hell: [SEEING HELL: DO THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN BEHOLD THE SUFFERINGS OF THE DAMNED (AND HOW DO THEY RESPOND)](https://cdn.rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Johnson-Seeing_Hell.pdf) It was apparently some Presbyterian/Calvinist’s Master’s thesis. Conclusion: "This thesis affirms that the saints in heaven will be aware of hell and know a great deal concerning it. It is probable that they will see it. They will look into hell, see its ferocity and rejoice over it as an immensely glorifying spectacle to the glory of God given to them for their eternal benefit. " Seems like there’s no need for simulated violence in Heaven because all there have the ability to see the real thing in Hell, and to glory in the sight of it. This whole extensive paper reflects the beliefs of very many of my neighbors and kinfolk. So I don’t hang with them too much. ---
**Author:** ![Cmyers1980](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyers1980/32/11814_2.png) [@Cmyers1980](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cmyers1980)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/16 "2023-05-03T01:26:20Z")
I thought the androids in Westworld were revealed to be actually sentient. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/17 "2023-05-03T05:48:50Z")
I have a feeling it wouldn’t take me long to turn to violence, simulated or otherwise, if I heard one more bloody harp. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/18 "2023-05-03T11:04:57Z")
> [@Cmyers1980](#): > > I thought the androids in Westworld were revealed to be actually sentient. Yeah, exactly. That was the problem. Their sentience emerged. If you simulate anything with enough precision, who’s to say that simulated violence in heaven isn’t just a big mistake. Or it could be a sims’ hell, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/19 "2023-05-03T11:10:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > How do you know they’re p-zombies? They’re fake people, but their [pain is real](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWb_svTrcOg). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2023, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481/20 "2023-05-03T11:26:33Z")
[A surprisingly huge mess, in fact.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ey9Qh7U_PHY&pp=ygUbR29vZCBwbGFjZSBldGVybml0eSBwcm9ibGVt) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-be-simulated-violence-in-heaven/983481.md?page=2)