# Would there have been a WWII without Hitler? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375 "2018-04-14T02:34:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/81 "2018-04-19T02:40:09Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > This sounds like a similar situation to Japan prior to World War II. > > The Japanese believed themselves to be a chosen race of superhumans - I’m not entirely sure how many of them actually _believed_ this and how many of them were manipulated/pressed into service by people who believed it, but the ideology was certainly there. They believed themselves to be far superior to the Chinese and Koreans, but until only recently (from their standpoint) it was always China that had the empire, the territory, and the power. (The Chinese probably likewise considered themselves superior to the Japanese - it’s not like the Japanese had a monopoly on this kind of thinking.) After the Russo-Japanese War emboldened them with a major military victory, their leaders decided that Japan also needed an empire. Well, they fucked up with that plan, to say the least. > > Nevertheless, I have to give Japan, collectively, a lot of credit for successfully resisting any kind of colonization for a very, very long time. In many ways, they were the UK of Asia. > > The Japanese bubble seems to have burst though, and today they have demographic problems of their own with birth rates and problems with chronic overwork; the salaryman system seems to be collapsing; China has all but caught up in technology, and of course, the Chinese military once again dwarfs anything else in Asia and is becoming increasingly bellicose. Someone who was very cynical might suggest that Japan is overdue for another wave of nationalism. > > It’s almost like history has a tendency to repeat itself. While not being overly well read on Imperial Japan, and at the risk of having an overly Eurocentric read on history I’d opine that their feeling of superiority / inferiority complex wasn’t so much aimed at China as much as the European powers. Basically Japan modernized and industrialized super fast in the early 20th (all the while China was getting gangraped and looted to shit by various westerners) and then they dunked on the Russians despite the rest of the world assuming it was going to be a curbstomp war ; at which point the Japanese national pride (which had taken a big hit around the time of the Black Ships) exploded into an “OK, we’re now on par with the Euros, in fact we’re even better at being Euros than the Euros ; so we should have all the shit they have around here” - the shit being lots of power over China, Korea, Indochina etc… ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/82 "2018-04-20T01:32:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That is I believe one of the moving parts of the works of the successors of the Fischer Thesis; thus named after the German historian who published a paper in the 60s analyzing the role of Germany in WW1 and essentially opining that the whole thing was more or less all Germany’s fault due to a profoundly imperialist zeitgeist amongst not only its elites (military or otherwise) but its basic people also… I’m not familiar with this thesis, and will be looking it up ASAP, but really shouldn’t most of the blame for WW1 be laid at the feet at the Russians jumping into what was otherwise another tiff in the Balkans? Not that the Great Powers wouldn’t have found some other excuse to go at it; I’m just not sure it was some unique innate trait in Germans that inevitably caused the world to ignite. Which is what I think you are stating his thesis was. Whole lot of parallels between now and then, what with hair trigger retaliatory defense mechanisms, and poorly understood and mediated interactions at the outskirts of each Power’s sphere of influence. Thanks for the new reference, **Kobal**. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/83 "2018-04-20T01:34:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > While not being overly well read on Imperial Japan, and at the risk of having an overly Eurocentric read on history I’d opine that their feeling of superiority / inferiority complex wasn’t so much aimed at China as much as the European powers. > Basically Japan modernized and industrialized super fast in the early 20th (all the while China was getting gangraped and looted to shit by various westerners) and then they dunked on the Russians despite the rest of the world assuming it was going to be a curbstomp war ; at which point the Japanese national pride (which had taken a big hit around the time of the Black Ships) exploded into an “OK, we’re now on par with the Euros, in fact we’re even better at being Euros than the Euros ; so we should have all the shit they have around here” - the shit being lots of power over China, Korea, Indochina etc… I see your point, but then how did they explain their absolute ass-kicking by Zhukov at [Khalkhin-Gol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol)? Just one of those, “Holy shit, let’s not do that again!” things? Or, we would have beaten you, if we weren’t busy trying to subjugate China, but let’s have bygones be bygones? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/84 "2018-04-20T06:07:55Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I’m not familiar with this thesis, and will be looking it up ASAP, but really shouldn’t most of the blame for WW1 be laid at the feet at the Russians jumping into what was otherwise another tiff in the Balkans? Not that the Great Powers wouldn’t have found some other excuse to go at it; I’m just not sure it was some unique innate trait in Germans that inevitably caused the world to ignite. Which is what I think you are stating his thesis was. > > Whole lot of parallels between now and then, what with hair trigger retaliatory defense mechanisms, and poorly understood and mediated interactions at the outskirts of each Power’s sphere of influence. > > Thanks for the new reference, **Kobal**. Yeah, there was just a metric shittonne of massive stpudity, sabre rattling and bad diplomatic moves. Russia, The AH Empire and The Ottomans were all on the verge of collapse anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/85 "2018-04-23T06:46:50Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I’m not familiar with this thesis, and will be looking it up ASAP, but really shouldn’t most of the blame for WW1 be laid at the feet at the Russians jumping into what was otherwise another tiff in the Balkans? Not that the Great Powers wouldn’t have found some other excuse to go at it; I’m just not sure it was some unique innate trait in Germans that inevitably caused the world to ignite. Which is what I think you are stating his thesis was. > > Whole lot of parallels between now and then, what with hair trigger retaliatory defense mechanisms, and poorly understood and mediated interactions at the outskirts of each Power’s sphere of influence. > > Thanks for the new reference, **Kobal**. Bear in mind that I’m by no means whatsoever an expert on the subject, it was just covered rapidly in some of my classes a couple years ago ; but from what I remember Fischer argues that Wilhem and his cronies deliberately engineered/encouraged said tiff in the Balkans so that they could get a good war going ; be it by supporting aggressive parties on one side or assuring the other they would get Austrian backup should they decide to pursue aggressive means for any reason _wink wink_. I do not know whether or not they reckoned Russia would join in, to say nothing of the rest of Europe. That’s for his direct and immediate “we caused the war” ; his further thesis regarding the motives and trends that let the Kaiser et al. to think it was a good idea I cannot really comment knowledgeably upon, save for the fact that Wilhelm amply demonstrated what a meathead of nigh Trumpian proportions he was, judging by the way he handled (or caused !) a number of international diplomatic snafus in the years leading to the war. > [@](#): > > I see your point, but then how did they explain their absolute ass-kicking by Zhukov at [Khalkhin-Gol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol)? Just one of those, “Holy shit, let’s not do that again!” things? Or, we would have beaten you, if we weren’t busy trying to subjugate China, but let’s have bygones be bygones? No idea. As I said, I’m really not a star when it comes to the Pacific War - or Japan in general, really, outside of knowing the Sengoku Jidai like the back of my hand by now because it’s featured in so many strategy games and samurai books ^^; ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2018, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375/86 "2018-04-23T09:22:20Z")
in school one of the scholastic (the education mag company) history journals had a what if thing where the market didn’t crash in 29 one effect in response to unionization was that Germany became the business equilivent of Mexico and a lot of heavy industry moved there making Germany prosperous and hitler was ignored and went back to art school WW2 happened but between us and the ussr in 1955 and we won due more nuke strikes [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-there-have-been-a-wwii-without-hitler/812375.md?page=4)