The fact is, when you look at what Britain and France were prepared to Appease, an aggressive fascist German could have torn up Versailles without a shot being fired.
The death blow to appeasement is the invasion of the rump of Czechoslovakia which proves to the west that hitlers ambitions are limitless. So German demands in Danzig are not seen as a bid for rightful German lands to be returned, but a plot to utterly destroy Poland.
The invasion of USSR only makes sense in the light of crazy Nazi ideologies about Lebensraum.
WW2 is Hitler’s war. You need Hitler or a very Hitlery figure (ie one also obsessed with Lebensraum) for it to happen.
A Teutonic Mussolini doesn’t fit the bill.
Again, if you read about that early plot, you will see it *was *the majority of the Generals. They had decided to rebel if Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia.
However, then Chamberlain gave Hitler everything he had asked for. Then there was the personal oath to Hitler, the illusion of Hitlers genius, and yes the successful build up of the German military.
Chamberlain declared war on Nazi Germany when, and only when, he had sufficient support - the whole country was reticent given the industrial slaughter of 20 years earlier.
With a million dead or injured so recent, this wasn’t a time for grandstanding fuckwits.
Do you have a cite for that? Everything I’ve read says it was a few senior abwehr officers (the abwehr under Canaris was never fully on board with the Nazi) and a smattering of senior wermacht officers. And that most of those generals who were on board were upset about the timing of the war (they thought war before Germany was ready would be a catastrophe ), not the war itself.
There are several books that cover it. It’s critical to note that this was Pre-Munich. There were quite a few cabals after that, but those always were by the minority of Generals. Pre-Munich was the last time the majority of the General Staff considered moving vs Hitler.
This is a warning for personal insults. I notice a pattern of hostility when discussing topics pertaining to the U.S. I recommend avoiding them if they are upsetting to the point where you are unable to follow the rules of the forum.
Exactly, and in 1914 this was one of the main reasons why war was inevitable. And that was over 40 years after the defeat, twice as far back as the end of WW1 in 1945.
Sometimes never. e.g. in international football Germany-vs-Japan is STILL a massive grudge match for the Russians because of their loss Russo-Japanese war of 1904! (Despite there being one or two small wars in the meantime)
I reading about that war as part of the French surrender the German army was allowed to march/parade thru Paris. The French made everything black but still it was humiliating.
I dunno its your thread you can call it sidetracked if you want. To me it is the key point that speaks to the OP.
With the exception of a few individuals the German military hierarchy in the late 1930s, from the lowest to the highest levels DID want revenge for their “betrayal” in at the end of WW1. Just like the French military hierarchy in 1914 wanted revenge for the war of 1870.
That fact would have led to war with the western allies, Hitler or no Hitler. Maybe not in 1939 (there was huge concern that the army wasn’t ready then), but soon thereafter.
That’s a coincidence. I note a pattern of free market ideology in your postings, regardless of the cost of that ideology to society in general or individuals in that society.
Imo, that makes you unsuitable for a role pertaining to objective moderation, and I really don’t give a flying fuck what you do about it. This board really needs to be even more parochial.
As a procedural matter, Moderators are discouraged from starting pit threads about other posters.
Normally, I would direct posters to ATMB if they wish to discuss moderation, however I have done this specifically with you in the past so this is a warning for being a jerk, specifically hostility in response to moderation outside of ATMB. I have taken the liberty of suspending you as well while discussion about your posting privileges takes place.
That is I believe one of the moving parts of the works of the successors of the Fischer Thesis; thus named after the German historian who published a paper in the 60s analyzing the role of Germany in WW1 and essentially opining that the whole thing was more or less all Germany’s fault due to a profoundly imperialist zeitgeist amongst not only its elites (military or otherwise) but its basic people also. Various historians have since agreed with Fischer and “proved” (to the extent that any historical theory can be proven) that a continuation of the very same spirit and fundamental ideals and ideas could very conceivably also be to blame for the rise of Nazism and ultimately WW2.
Basically (and vastly oversimplifying) your average German felt superior to all of their European neighbours for various reasons and considered it very unfair and Wrong™ that despite this moral, technical, scientific or sometimes even innate/genetic superiority of the Germans ; the German “Empire” very much paled in comparison to the British one and even the French overseas possessions. This spirit, naturally, was heavily represented among the military lifers and further exacerbated by their defeat in WW1.
It’s not for nothing that the *Dolschstosslegende *was used so much in 1930s Nazi propaganda (and their 1920s predecessors).
This sounds like a similar situation to Japan prior to World War II.
The Japanese believed themselves to be a chosen race of superhumans - I’m not entirely sure how many of them actually believed this and how many of them were manipulated/pressed into service by people who believed it, but the ideology was certainly there. They believed themselves to be far superior to the Chinese and Koreans, but until only recently (from their standpoint) it was always China that had the empire, the territory, and the power. (The Chinese probably likewise considered themselves superior to the Japanese - it’s not like the Japanese had a monopoly on this kind of thinking.) After the Russo-Japanese War emboldened them with a major military victory, their leaders decided that Japan also needed an empire. Well, they fucked up with that plan, to say the least.
Nevertheless, I have to give Japan, collectively, a lot of credit for successfully resisting any kind of colonization for a very, very long time. In many ways, they were the UK of Asia.
The Japanese bubble seems to have burst though, and today they have demographic problems of their own with birth rates and problems with chronic overwork; the salaryman system seems to be collapsing; China has all but caught up in technology, and of course, the Chinese military once again dwarfs anything else in Asia and is becoming increasingly bellicose. Someone who was very cynical might suggest that Japan is overdue for another wave of nationalism.
It’s almost like history has a tendency to repeat itself.