# Would these behaviors be relationship red flags for you?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [October 15, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435 "2014-10-15T19:59:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/41 "2014-10-16T13:55:07Z")
> [@DataX](#):
>
> Trust me - I have put up with a lot I didn’t deserve in relationships and made lots of compromises where I felt I was giving in 90% of the time - you are not letting your dislike of Rick cloud your judgement.
>
> Some people are ok being alone, but many just feel an empty hole and it isn’t really that she has low self esteem - which I am sure she does - in her mind - and in reality - she probably doesn’t have much of a choice. If she gives this up she risks being alone forever - some people would prefer that - some would not.
I think DataX nailed it here. On Ricks side it is possible that he never has experienced a relationship where the woman was so willing to be submissive and he is somehow getting off on it. They may reach a middle ground as they grow more accustomed to one another or Rick may continue to push his agenda to the point of abuse. Really a hard call without knowing the history of both of them.
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### Author:  [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/42 "2014-10-16T13:56:55Z")
For me, 1 and 3 wouldn’t be major red flags. Some couples are happy with one person being the breadwinner. And keeping up family appearances at church is a big deal for some people. Very much not my thing, and it would make me roll my eyes, but it wouldn’t set my alarm bells ringing.
2 and 4, though, are dodgy as hell.
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### Author:  [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/43 "2014-10-16T14:20:57Z")
To address all four of the original points.
1. Isn’t much of a red flag to me. Plenty of couples have a joint bank account with only one income earner. In fact about half my coworkers have stay at home moms for a wife. Honestly, if she doesn’t have to work, who would blame her for staying home?
2. Depends on how it was presented. If it’s “I don’t know why she’s spending all that money/going through all that stress/taking all that time away from the family for something she’s not planning to use at all”, then it seems reasonable to want to talk her out of it. If it’s “Women don’t need any education to raise my kids and fulfill my needs”, then it’s a big red flag.
3. Seems more like a small red flag. It seems pretty normal to want your whole family with you for what is ultimately a social gathering. I’ve been invited to a few houseparties, and my wife is a bit of an introvert, so she tends to stay home. I frequently get “Where’s the wife? I was hoping to say hello at least”. And that can get kind of grating and sometimes I get odd looks when she misses three or four of those parties in a row. So I can understand wanting your whole family there.
4. This is bizarro land, and I agree it’s a red flag. If it was the only thing you mentioned, I’d just chalk it up to Rick having odd ideas about fashion and Lori deciding this wasn’t a hill to die on. With the rest it seems awfully controlling.
So, taken individually I don’t actually see most of these as too concerning. It’s the combination of all four that would set off alarm bells. I’d fear that even if Lori says she’s happy, she’s only saying it because she doesn’t want to admit the truth to herself.
As for whether or not **Skald** should get involved: I’m reminded of a quote given to me in high school after a particularly bad breakup “Nobody can tell you that the relationship you’re in is a bad one. You have to figure it out yourself”. That particular girl, most of friends gave me the “are you sure about this dude?” speech and I blew it off. Only after we broke up did I realize they were all trying to look out for me and I was getting pissed at them instead. I think the same would happen with Lori. She would probably just get pissed at **Skald** for trying to interfere in her marriage, even if in the back of her mind she knows he’s right.
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### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/44 "2014-10-16T14:27:58Z")
The two parts of your post that really seem over the top to me are “wouldn’t look right” and “began to suggest that I enact a similar rule for my wife before I suggested he shut his mouth.” Wouldn’t look right to whom? Why is he so obsessed with what other people think? And what right does he have to tell you how to treat your wife?
Those two things add up to "religious nutjob.’
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/45 "2014-10-16T16:21:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> I will own up to a little mild curiosity in the matter of the mother of Rick’s 13-year old kid, and her whereabouts.
>
> I only hope I didn’t accidentally skim over a reference to Rick being a widower.
I have no idea who the mother of Rick’s youngest is. I didn’t know he existed until he was four, and I had no idea until last weekend that Rick had two others. Which doesn’t mean much as we aren’t close, but my older brother, who is close to him, says the older two are news to him too.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/46 "2014-10-16T16:25:07Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#):
>
> Rick sounds like a controller. It sounds like you let him know in no uncertain terms what you thought of his controlling behaviour, so good for you.
>
> I have to say though, you sound a bit sexist, with giving a physical description of Lori, but not of Rick. I know that’s not the question you were asking, but maybe you should ask yourself why you did that.
I mentioned her appearance because of something she said to my wife–that a pretty, slender twentysomething has more options than a heavyset fiftysomething.
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#):
>
> As for whether or not **Skald** should get involved: I’m reminded of a quote given to me in high school after a particularly bad breakup “Nobody can tell you that the relationship you’re in is a bad one. You have to figure it out yourself”. That particular girl, most of friends gave me the “are you sure about this dude?” speech and I blew it off. Only after we broke up did I realize they were all trying to look out for me and I was getting pissed at them instead. I think the same would happen with Lori. She would probably just get pissed at **Skald** for trying to interfere in her marriage, even if in the back of her mind she knows he’s right.
Oh, I’m not considering getting involved. I only care about Lori in an abstract sense, and they live a thousand miles away anyhow.
But even if neither of those things were true, I learned my lesson on this issue more than 25 years ago. When I was in high school, my friend Blondie had a boyfriend who slapped her around, so our mutual friend “Kennie” and I got mad and had a searching conversation with the dude. Did no good whatsoever.
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### Author:  [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/47 "2014-10-16T17:02:46Z")
I would tell Rick that he is a putz and I would not waste anymore breath on speaking with him.
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### Author:  [@jayrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayrey)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/48 "2014-10-16T17:05:28Z")
> [@phouka](#):
>
> On the contrary, it is absolutely his place to say something.
>
> Rick’s behavior reeks of the grooming an abuser puts his victim through before the actual violence starts. He is isolating her from work, education, and family worlds, and he is imposing rigid gender role expectations on her - stay at home mother for a 13 year old boy, no longer allowed to wear pants, no longer allowing her to earn her own income or keep a separate bank account.
>
> Silence from others only re-enforces what the abuser does and leads the victim to believe that what is happening to her is normal, expected, and deserved. She needs to be told by as many people as possible that a) these are signs of an abuser, b) she deserves to be treated better, and c) she can always call/email/text that person for help, no questions asked.
>
> No one expects Skald to give his cousin the Shovel Speech, though it might not be a bad idea. There’s a line I read a while back that really struck home for me. “The only people who think all men are rapists are rapists.” Rapists, spouse abusers, and child abusers all believe on some level that what they do is normal, acceptable. Hearing a bunch of strident women call him an abuser isn’t going to change Rick’s mind. Hearing other men tell him he’s full of shit might just.
I doubt that other men telling Rick he’s full of shit will have any effect at all. I’m guessing that Skald’s emphatic rejection of the no-pants suggestion didn’t faze Rick in the slightest. More likely, Rick thought that Skald was pussy-whipped and to be pitied.
But, I think it is very important that lots of people tell Lori that Rick has all the signs of being an abuser and she needs to wake up and smell the coffee, if only by setting up a secret savings account to build her get-away fund. Because she’s gonna need to get away someday and probably not too long into the future. Yes, I suspect the Lori has some self-esteem issues. Typically, only a woman with issues, or no real life relationship experience, would allow a man to dictate important parts of her life like that.
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### Author:  [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/49 "2014-10-17T01:36:02Z")
> [@GreedySmurf](#):
>
> I’m not sure it’s a red flag as such, but my immediate thought was the 1950’s called and they want their misogynist back.
>
> I’d not go as far as phouka to suggest its grooming for abuse, but there is obviously some gender stereotypes in Rick’s head that are very outdated for contemporary western society. But for all we/you know maybe Lori is happy for it be that way. Maybe she likes being a kept woman.
Bingo. Definite red flags and obvious power imbalance for mine, but I dare say she knew what she was getting into and is either happy with it or at worst comfortable to tolerate it and play along.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/50 "2014-10-17T02:34:25Z")
What’s “the Shovel Speech”?
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/51 "2014-10-17T06:59:47Z")
I’ve known plenty of Pentecostals that are not like Rick. And I don’t just mean the people who go to the more liberal Assemblies of God churches that have the speaking in tongues thing but not the misogynist requirements for women.
Plus, Rick is married to an atheist, so he’s already not toeing the party line.
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### Author:  [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/52 "2014-10-17T15:04:53Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#):
>
> What’s “the Shovel Speech”?
> **[Urban Dictionary: Shovel Talk](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shovel%20Talk)**
>
> The "If you hurt him/her I will break you" talk given as a warning to a romantic partner from a concerned party, usually family or a close friend.
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### Author:  [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/53 "2014-10-19T01:21:50Z")
FTR I have never met Skald and I am not related to him by marriage.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Getting back to the OP. Putz? For sure.
Old fashioned ideas about gender roles? You bet.
Abuser? Assumes facts not in evidence.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/54 "2014-10-19T01:29:48Z")
But the thread isn’t about what conclusions can be reached by analyzing the facts in evidence; it’s about red flags.
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### Author:  [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)
#### Post date: [October 19, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/55 "2014-10-19T02:26:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#):
>
> Does anyone else see red flags in all this?
There are the red flags about this situation, but it isn’t your place to step in.
What you Can do is have a frank discussion with your wife. Express to her your concerns & see if she echoes them (She’s met Rick, I haven’t). If she agrees with you, there still isn’t anything that you can do now.
You CAN agree, however, that if Lori ever approaches you showing abvious signs of abuse, says she wants out and can’t get out… that you can provide her with a safe “Rick-Free” place to stay until you can get her into a battered woman’s shelter.
Rick will probably take her for everything she has & torpedo her education, but if her close relatives/parents (you’re just cousins) are alive, its their place to step in and say something. Maybe they’ve already done a “Will” upgrade
so that anything she inherits is held in trust & distributed to her alone monthly. Granted, you are certainly free to talk to your relatives and see what they say, but unless they plan on throwing Rick a “blanket party”, leave your bat in the closet.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2014, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/56 "2014-11-12T04:38:50Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#):
>
> It’s #2 that really set me off. If Lori wants to finish her MBA, who is Rick to say no? That amount of controlling is ridiculous. Grown up people do not need anyone’s permission to anything reasonable. Yes, Rick can put his imput into her decision, but it is her decision.
How do you know he isn’t simply going to offer his input? He said “_discourage_ her from continuing her education”, so I would assume that’s what he’s going to do.
In the absence of anything else, I don’t think that the thing about discouraging Lori from her job and MBA are ‘red flags’, whatever that means, or problematic in any other way. The stuff about the jeans is kind of strange. It’s ultimately their life though.
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### Author:  [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/57 "2014-11-12T04:40:40Z")
> [@Lasciel](#):
>
> If Lori wants to be with Rick for whatever reasons, then that’s her unfortunate life. In a perfect world, sure, Scald’s happily liberated atheist wife would pull Lori aside for some encouragement to keep her pants and finish her goddamned degree and for fucks sake get a secret account in her name that Rick doesn’t know about, but this isn’t a perfect world, and a 50 year old woman is demonstrably a grownup…
I don’t think I’d want to inhabit your ‘perfect’ world.
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### Author:  [@XRaeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XRaeth)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/58 "2014-11-12T05:56:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#):
>
> On Saturday night, Rick mentioned to the family, almost casually, that Lori is not allowed to wear pants anymore. Literally. The women in our family didn’t wear pants when we were growing up because that was the rule at our church…
As I grew up in a Pentecostal church I was very surprised to hear this. Is this common for Pentecostal churches in the states, because it certainly does not happen in any of the churches near me.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/59 "2014-11-12T16:33:00Z")
> [@XRaeth](#):
>
> As I grew up in a Pentecostal church I was very surprised to hear this. Is this common for Pentecostal churches in the states, because it certainly does not happen in any of the churches near me.
It was true in the church I grew up in, when I was growing up. I don’t know about now, though I doubt women wear pants to service.
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### Author:  [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-these-behaviors-be-relationship-red-flags-for-you/701435/60 "2014-11-12T17:49:28Z")
\*Secular \*women wearing pants is still occasionally a big thing in the south, especially in old-money or rural areas. It’s a weird culture if you aren’t familiar.
From my experience, it greatly depends on the church. When I was a teen we bounced through a great many Pentecostal-flavored churches, and they varied from head-coverings to long-skirts only to “just please don’t wear ripped jeans to church.” Most of them did prefer women to dress “modestly” which usually translated to dresses/skirts of some kind, because apparently the fact that women have legs is really stimulating.
And **Hector** , I agree, my description was in-apt. It’s not a perfect world when a woman has to encourage another woman to keep a sense of self in the face of spousal pressure. You’re correct that my advice reflects a very imperfect world.
If that wasn’t your concern, then I’m sorry that you feel threatened by women encouraging other women to continue wearing pants (or working outside the home) without spousal approval, of women finishing their degrees regardless of the “input” the spouse offers, or of everyone who is married having their own personal, private (which often necessitates secret) bank account in case things turn out poorly.
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