# Would this 4th grade teacher's behavior put you on alert? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 22, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476 "2007-08-22T08:47:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/41 "2007-08-23T01:49:55Z")
Using visual and hands on items is the best way for some children to remember the lesson. She said what her favorite book is. She didn’t try to teach lessons about it did she?. She shouldn’t be bringing it up numerous times during the lesson, or she needs to work at a parochial school. ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/42 "2007-08-23T03:05:29Z")
[QUOTE=CairoCarol] . The point is well taken and teaching kids to think metaphorically is appropriate. But I got the sense she TOLD the children what the “moral” was. [/QUOTE] So, what would have been better? Having them guess the moral? The school day is only so long! It could taken days before someone guessed the right thing. I’m much more upset about her spelling and punctuation errors. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/43 "2007-08-23T03:33:43Z")
It depends on if it were a “science experiment” or a “try and see” experiment. If the former, then it isn’t a good sign. If the latter, then she sounds a little touchy-feely, but it doesn’t say anything about her academic potential. The spoiler doesn’t change my feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/44 "2007-08-23T03:37:08Z")
Home school. All the motives and hidden agendas are yours. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/45 "2007-08-23T03:45:31Z")
Frankly, I don’t see the big to-doey about her favorite book being the Bible. Religiousity aside, the book has great stories. I had an English teacher in the 11th grade who was a very vocal atheist and yet appreciated the book so much that she required one of her classes to read it. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/46 "2007-08-23T03:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=CairoCarol] Maybe there is no connection between toothpaste and her favorite book. My fear is that she is teaching like a Sunday-school teacher, not an academic teacher. Of course, I have no problem with the toothpaste analogy per se. The point is well taken and teaching kids to think metaphorically is appropriate. But I got the sense she TOLD the children what the “moral” was. I worry that her primary goal as a teacher is not to teach the three Rs, but to instill values. In my most extreme moments, I find myself thinking: Thanks, lady, but instilling values (beyond the routine schoolyard stuff that inevitably comes up) is MY job. You want to teach Sunday school, you know where the church is. [/QUOTE] Is the teacher in question an American? Eight years ago I arrived to my first day of a (required) Special Issues In Education class, and learned the theme of the class - moral perspectives in education. I hated the class, mostly because I feel as you do: teaching moral lessons is supposed to be the sole domain of parents. However a lot of people training educators disagree with us, so we spent an entire semester on learning how to teach morals to children in a secular manner. :rolleyes: She may have been coached to teach the same way. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/47 "2007-08-23T09:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Autumn Almanac:** > I still don’t get why revealing that the teacher is Christian is supposed to ‘change our feelings’ about the toothpaste demonstration… What’s the connection there? I don’t have anything to add to my previous remarks, so either you skipped ahead without reading them, or the arguments don’t seem adequate to you - in case it’s the former, here’s what I said about why I see a potential connection between her evangelical Christianity and her use of classroom time on morality lessons: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **CairoCarol:** > Maybe there is no connection between toothpaste and her favorite book. My fear is that she is teaching like a Sunday-school teacher, not an academic teacher. Of course, I have no problem with the toothpaste analogy per se. The point is well taken and teaching kids to think metaphorically is appropriate. But I got the sense she TOLD the children what the “moral” was. I worry that her primary goal as a teacher is not to teach the three Rs, but to instill values. In my most extreme moments, I find myself thinking: Thanks, lady, but instilling values (beyond the routine schoolyard stuff that inevitably comes up) is MY job. You want to teach Sunday school, you know where the church is. > > –and– > > This teacher is infantalizing the kids in a few ways I won’t go into here (I’ll just say “stuffed animals for 4th graders?” and leave it at that) and I fear her emphasis on “morals” reflects her personal comfort zone (since as an activist Christian, she has, I trust, spent a lot of time thinking about ethical and moral situations), whereas my son has memorized the Dewey decimal code for physics so he can more quickly find the science books he inhales. I’m not saying “oh, he likes science, so his teachers should never address social or ethical issues.” I’m saying I want him to have a teacher whose primary focus is academic, and I’m afraid that may not be what he’s getting here. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **fessie** : > If he’s already fast-tracking his science education on his own (maybe with your help?), then a touchy-feely socialization teacher might be a GREAT thing for him right now. This teacher may not have the skills to push him academically, but there’s a whole lot else he could learn. But…he is in school to learn academics! What you say sounds nice at first, but imagine that he has shown an interest in and aptitude for music and so I have set him up with a piano teacher, who turns out to spend all her lesson time talking about how important it is to be kind. Would you say “the teacher may not have the skills to teach him music, but there’s a whole lot else he could learn?” I don’t think so – you would switch teachers (not a choice for me, alas) because you would have engaged the teacher to teach music, damn it, not “touchy feely” stuff. Also, the school has spent most of the last five years on “touchy feely” stuff. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Dung Beetle:** > Oh no! I meant, I had no problem with the toothpaste thing, I’m a little worried about the Christianity thing, and next you tell me she can’t spell? Now I’m ready to fire this lady. OIC. Thanks for the clarification. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **bluethree:** > I know that I’ve read recently that the toothpaste-in-the-tube analogy has been used by whacko abstinence-only “sex ed” programs to show young women that they can never reclaim their virginity once they give it up. > Here, I found something about it on somebody’s blog: AHHHHGGGGGHHHH! I’m not sure it is a good idea for me to know that. Thanks for making that connection. I think. :eek: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **kittenblue** : > So, what would have been better? Having them guess the moral? The school day is only so long. YES, having them guess the moral would be much better - a few leading questions could be tossed in if needed to guide them. (If they are smart enough to understand the lesson, they are smart enough to figure it out with a good teacher.) If there is enough time for the lesson at all, there should be enough time to do it right. If time is in short supply, maybe they should get busy on math and spelling and all those things. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **elfkin477:** > Is the teacher in question an American? Yes, she moved to Egypt many years ago in support of her husband, whose expressed intent was to prosyletize and build a Christian community in Cairo. I don’t know that the church he built has been all that successful in converting Moslems, but it has created a vibrant community of conservative Christians among expats. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/48 "2007-08-23T09:29:27Z")
Well, look, if he’s 99th percentile in science, there’s not much chance the school’s curriculum is going to challenge him unless he’s in some kind of special program geared towards it. An ordinary classroom just can’t teach towards the far end of the bell curve, correct? **Dangermom** ’s resources are probably what you really want. FTR, my favorite music teacher _did_ teach us about issues above and beyond how to play our instruments. “Socialization” is more than just “don’t kill each other at recess” – dealing with different _adults’_ agendas is valuable, too. But if you’ve had your fill with these particular kinds of lessons in this particular setting, that would be understandable. And if you don’t see your son living in her version of society, perhaps you would be better off substituting your own. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/49 "2007-08-23T10:19:28Z")
The concept that you should be careful about what you say doesn’t sound like the teacher is teaching a set of personal morals or values yet. The moral to a story or learning experience isn’t the same as a code of ethics that might vary from person to person, is it? Aren’t there a few standards that are universal? Possibly: Don’t be greedy. Do your best. Be kind to others. Whether they intend to or not, a teacher _will_ teach values to students – even if it is only by example. It needn’t take up a great amount of class time. But every teacher teaches a whole and integrated student. One subject overlaps with another. Cairo, you do have a very good attitude about how to approach any problems. Like you, I would always start with the teacher. Parents who are in close contact with school make a world of difference in their children’s education. My biggest concern at the moment would be her carelessness with spelling and punctuation on anything that is prepared for or given to the students. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/50 "2007-08-23T10:32:35Z")
Count me among those who don’t see any connection between the toothpaste lesson and the teacher’s Christianity – actually it strikes me as kind of bizarrely conspiracy-theorishy. You said your kid couldn’t articulate the lesson to be learned, but that’s not correct. The moral was the lesson, and it was reasonable. I’m sure someone could have come up with a better methodology, but it worked, and the point was not to have the kids figure out a way to re-load the paste, it was to show them it couldn’t be done easily, which also worked. OTOH, I would be somewhat disturbed about the bible reference, totally divorced from the toothpaste distraction. And I would ask my kid to keep me informed about what else the teacher says about Jesus or the bible. I’m not sure what if any options you have, other than removing your child from the school, if the teacher begins teaching Christianity 101. It’s not a public school in the States, so you might not have any other legal recouse to force a behavior change. If it happens, I suppose you would just have to inform the administration and hope for the best. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/51 "2007-08-23T11:58:39Z")
Most elementary schools that I’m familiar with do focus on “touchy-feely” as well as academics, as part of civilizing the little savages. 🙂 Of course, these are public schools in the US where many parents are _not_ teaching “share; don’t hit; be kind to others” at home. **CairoCarol** , is switching schools an option? You sound dissatisfied overall with his school–“the school has spent most of the last five years on “touchy feely” stuff”–and they may simply not be able to provide him with the advanced academics that you want. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/52 "2007-08-23T12:06:20Z")
How did the toothpaste get in the tube in the first place? Why can’t you use that method to re-tube it? ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/53 "2007-08-23T13:54:54Z")
No, **burundi** , unfortunately changing schools isn’t an option. My son loves the school (he’s not keen on this teacher, but his reasons are different from mine - it is the stuffed animals that bother him, not her literature choices) and it would be silly for me to force him to undergo the trauma of a switch when in all likelihood we will leave Cairo in a year or so anyway. I think I’ll do the following: 1. Keep an eye on the extent to which the “touchy feely” stuff plays a role in the classroom. I can hope that it will not be excessive; don’t yet know what I’ll do if it is. 2. Look into options for science education outside the school. ( **Fessie** is right in observing that ordinary academics probably won’t do the trick anyway if he’s that advanced.) 3. Talk to her privately, in a non-threatening way, about the spelling and punctuation errors. (I’ll wait until I have a few more examples; at the rate they are coming it will not take long.) I can offer to volunteer to proofread class handouts for her. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/54 "2007-08-23T14:05:55Z")
That sounds very reasonable. The spelling and punctuation errors are \*waay \*more of a red flag for me than the toothpaste and Bible stuff. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/55 "2007-08-23T14:16:27Z")
Well I thought she was going to segue from the toothpaste to the whole “you can’t **un** fuck somebody” thing so I guess it could be worse. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/56 "2007-08-23T14:20:16Z")
I too would be more worried about the spelling and punctuation errors. As you have said, her primary concern is teaching these children academics, and that kind of grammar is exactly what kids of this level are learning right now. Never mind putting the toothpaste back in the tube, these kids will never be able to use apostrophe “s” correctly! ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/57 "2007-08-23T15:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] How did the toothpaste get in the tube in the first place? Why can’t you use that method to re-tube it? [/QUOTE] God created all the toothpaste (in tubes) on the 5th day. Proctor and Gamble doesn’t make toothpaste, they mine it. He put the best toothpaste in the USA, and the shitty toothpaste in China. He was also smart enough to make trial size tubes that can fit in the TSA approved plastic bag for carry on baggage. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476/58 "2007-08-23T16:31:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Dag Otto:** > God created all the toothpaste (in tubes) on the 5th day. Proctor and Gamble doesn’t make toothpaste, they mine it. Snort. That’s almost right, Dag. But surely you meant to say: God created all the toothpaste \*\*(in tube’s) \*\*on the 5th day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-4th-grade-teachers-behavior-put-you-on-alert/416476.md?page=2)