# Would this kind of religious persecution be allowed in college? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724 "2014-03-14T21:23:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/21 "2014-03-14T23:26:07Z")
> [@j666](#): > > This strikes me as a perfectly reasonable way to start of Philosophy 101 class. Or Ethics. Or Semiotics. Maybe even Epistemology. > > How would the atheist deal with this question? How could a non-existent being die? > > The irreligious superstitious? > > The religious ambitious? > > The very polite? > > This could be a very interesting, and inexpensive, indie film … “Agree with my ideas without question, or fail the class!” strikes you as a reasonable first day of a class? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/22 "2014-03-14T23:30:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This act would engender one of those fairly rare cases. Watch the trailer when you can, it’s not a rhetorical teaching device, but rather a multi-day showdown between a student, and a professor demanding that he abandon his religion or be failed. Ah, okay, see that description is wildly different than the one presented in the OP. No, I cannot imagine a college or university, public or private, that would allow something like that to take place. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/23 "2014-03-14T23:37:45Z")
So…write " ’ God is dead ’ " inside quotes. You aren’t declaring it to be so; you’re quoting someone else. Sheesh. If that’s all it takes to pass a class, I’ll write " ’ I blow dead penguins for nickels ’ " 100 times on the chalkboard. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/24 "2014-03-14T23:43:15Z")
The premise breaks down rather quickly, anyone smart enough to get into college is smart enough to know they can withdraw from a class in the first week without receive a grade. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/25 "2014-03-14T23:45:08Z")
Yes, it was quite apparent after the first minutes of the trailer that this was a proselytizing movie in which the evil atheistic professor would be laid figuratively in the dust by the righteous young Christian, who I’m sure at the last moment would triumphantly prove the existence of God by some miracle or other, forcing the professor to acknowledge the emptiness of his existence. Praise the Lord! As for colleges being allowed to do this didn’t you know they were hotbeds of godlessness, homosexuality, anti-Americanism and libertinism? They have a special executive order from the President allowing them to do anything they please to Christians. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/26 "2014-03-15T00:23:56Z")
In the bowels and basements, they teach … (two-click rule applied): One click E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N … shhhhh ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/27 "2014-03-15T01:31:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > “Agree with my ideas without question, or fail the class!” strikes you as a reasonable first day of a class? Two points: I don’t interpret the situation that way. Students are instructed to write down a phrase, but **that is all**. What they make of that instruction could be interesting basis for discussion. (And, frankly, a lot of professors have exactly the attitude you describe. But that’s not the point I was trying to make.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/28 "2014-03-15T01:34:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ah, okay, see that description is wildly different than the one presented in the OP. No, I cannot imagine a college or university, public or private, that would allow something like that to take place. …and now that I’ve had the chance to watch the trailer, I’d just repeat myself. > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yes, it was quite apparent after the first minutes of the trailer that this was a proselytizing movie in which the evil atheistic professor would be laid figuratively in the dust by the righteous young Christian, who I’m sure at the last moment would triumphantly prove the existence of God by some miracle or other, forcing the professor to acknowledge the emptiness of his existence. Praise the Lord! I think you’ve nailed it. 😉 ETA: Am I the only one who thinks it’s kind of funny to see Hercules arguing that there are no gods? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/29 "2014-03-15T01:34:11Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yes, it was quite apparent after the first minutes of the trailer that this was a proselytizing movie in which the evil atheistic professor Oh, I doubt he’ll be presented as evil or even seriously atheistic - just embittered and facing a crisis of faith, to be pitied and helped by a good Christian to find his way back out of the darkness. Note the line is “God is dead”, not “God is a myth” or “God is fake”. Dean Cain’s character, though… obviously evil. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/30 "2014-03-15T01:37:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I doubt he’ll be presented as evil or even seriously atheistic - just embittered and facing a crisis of faith, to be pitied and helped by a good Christian to find his way back out of the darkness. Note the line is “God is dead”, not “God is a myth” or “God is fake”. > Dean Cain’s character, though… obviously evil. Aye, that’s the “why do you hate god” line leading up to the revelation… the little “r” one, not the big “R” one, btw. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/31 "2014-03-15T01:41:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > would a professor be allowed to have anti-religious requirements like these? Would an astronomy professor be allowed to have anti-astrology requirements? Would a physics professor be allowed to have anti-alchemy requirements? Would a medical professor be allowed to have anti-faith-healing requirements? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/32 "2014-03-15T01:42:33Z")
> [@randompattern](#): > > Outside of a theology class, would it be against college rules to require students to pass forward a note stating that god is the end all be all? > If anyone objects they fail. > If the school had no problem with with this scenario then it should be fine to do the god is dead thing. Or vice versa. I can’t imagine even in a theology class students being required to do this. Same with the OP. I can’t imagine even a tenured professor getting away with something like that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/33 "2014-03-15T01:42:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Is this an art class about producing artwork of nude subjects? It might be ok. Is it a nursing school class? I can think of more situations where your hypothetical might be okay. Outside of any relevance to the class, which is entirely unlike the situation described in the OP, I doubt it would be okay; it would more likely be considered abusive and exploitative. Per the OP, it’s a philosophy class. Did you miss that? Here: > [@OP](#): > > a philosophy class It was in the first sentence of the OP, so I can understand why you might have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/34 "2014-03-15T01:48:19Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Two points: > > I don’t interpret the situation that way. Students are instructed to write down a phrase, but **that is all**. What they make of that instruction could be interesting basis for discussion. > > (And, frankly, a lot of professors have exactly the attitude you describe. But that’s not the point I was trying to make.) I’m not sure if you mean the situation as presented in the trailer, or a similar-but-distinct spin-off…but here’s how it goes in the trailer: Professor: I would like to bypass senseless debate altogether, and jump to the conclusion that every sophomore is already aware of: there is no god. All I require from each of you is that you fill in the papers I’ve just given you with three little words: god is dead. Student: I can’t do what you want, I’m a Christian. Professor: If you cannot bring yourself to admit that god is dead, then you will need to defend the antithesis. He sure seems to be asking for a sincere declaration, there, and the price of non-compliance is a project for this student and this student only. As for the stakes, from the plot summary: > [@](#): > > Radisson begins class by informing students that they will need to disavow, in writing, the existence of God on that first day, or face a failing grade. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I doubt he’ll be presented as evil or even seriously atheistic - just embittered and facing a crisis of faith, to be pitied and helped by a good Christian to find his way back out of the darkness. Note the line is “God is dead”, not “God is a myth” or “God is fake”. Yep, the old trope that atheists don’t exist, only misotheists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/35 "2014-03-15T02:02:30Z")
Heck, the best fictional atheists are the ones who shrug indifferently, not the ones who rant passionately. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/36 "2014-03-15T02:24:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m not sure if you mean the situation as presented in the trailer, or a similar-but-distinct spin-off… I was referring to the Post - > [@Czarcasm](#): > > … a philosophy class where the students are told to write down on a piece of paper “God is dead” and hand it forward, and that failure to do so is an automatic failure. There is nothing here about professing any belief, but only writing down a specific phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/37 "2014-03-15T02:34:06Z")
I suppose arguably it’s a 3rd Commandment violation (2nd in some versions) about taking God’s name in vain and whatnot, even if one doesn’t actually believe the claim. Still, the involvement of that Duck Dynasty guy pretty much rules out any possibility that the issue will be left unresolved or even slightly ambiguous. Not only will God not be dead by the end of this flick, all the characters will be trying to buy Him lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/38 "2014-03-15T02:54:57Z")
As a rule, students can appeal grades at most colleges, and the scenario described would constitute valid grounds for a grade appeal if the professor actually followed through with the threat to fail the student. Without the threat to beat students with the grading stick, everything the professor did would be _allowed_, though very, very unwise for anyone without tenure to attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/39 "2014-03-15T03:23:52Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I was referring to the Post - > > There is nothing here about professing any belief, but only writing down a specific phrase. There’s also this: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When the one righteous Christian tells him that he will not do so, the professor tells him that he must prove the existence of God, or fail the class. …which is part of the scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Orr\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ee59a6/32.png) [@Orr\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orr_G)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/40 "2014-03-15T03:30:30Z")
I was privileged to see an advanced screening of this movie. I won’t spoil anything _too_ important, but the post credits scene shows a chicken strutting quite triumphantly away from a heavily beshitted chess board. Very poignant, IMO. That chicken’s name? Albert Einstein. As to the question in the OP, I’m reminded of the first day of one of my Bio classes in college. The professor announced that he had absolutely no interest in hearing any YEC nonsense either in class, or outside of class. A rather cute young woman next to me raised her hand and took a deep breath. Although he had his back mostly turned to us, the professor then emphasized, “This is a required course for Biology majors, and I will not hesitate to fail you.” The young woman lowered her hand without saying anything. Although I am ordinarily not a fan of winning an argument via intimidation, I definitely appreciated the amount of sheer information that professor packed into each class. That would not have been possible had he allowed himself to get embroiled in pointless debates three times a week. Anyway, and FWIW, this is as close a scenario as I’ve ever heard of to the one in the trailer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724.md?page=3)