# Would this kind of religious persecution be allowed in college? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724 "2014-03-14T21:23:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/41 "2014-03-15T03:40:46Z")
> [@Orr\_G](#): > > . . . As to the question in the OP, I’m reminded of the first day of one of my Bio classes in college. The professor announced that he had absolutely no interest in hearing any YEC nonsense either in class, or outside of class. A rather cute young woman next to me raised her hand and took a deep breath. Although he had his back mostly turned to us, the professor then emphasized, “This is a required course for Biology majors, and I will not hesitate to fail you.” The young woman lowered her hand without saying anything. . . . Grin! My Physical Anthropology prof gave a similar introduction. She said, “Darwin’s theory may be wrong out there in the real world, but inside this classroom, it will be taken as correct. You aren’t required to accept it, but you are required to comprehend it.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/42 "2014-03-15T03:55:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I doubt he’ll be presented as evil or even seriously atheistic - just embittered and facing a crisis of faith, to be pitied and helped by a good Christian to find his way back out of the darkness. Note the line is “God is dead”, not “God is a myth” or “God is fake”. > Dean Cain’s character, though… obviously evil. Agreed, that’s not a line to many atheists would use. It would be like a Christian declaring “Zeus is dead!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/43 "2014-03-15T04:24:35Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > As for colleges being allowed to do this didn’t you know they were hotbeds of godlessness, homosexuality, anti-Americanism and libertinism? They have a special executive order from the President allowing them to do anything they please to Christians. 🙂 We did try out libertinism in cold beds for a while, but that wasn’t working out for us. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/44 "2014-03-15T04:32:20Z")
So what does Christian-boy think will happen if he writes the phrase? Skies darkening, walls bursting in blood and flame, locusts descending in hordes? Because that would be kinda cool and now attainable on even a modest effects budget. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/45 "2014-03-15T05:50:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So what does Christian-boy think will happen if he writes the phrase? Skies darkening, walls bursting in blood and flame, locusts descending in hordes? Because that would be kinda cool and now attainable on even a modest effects budget. Cue the lions! These morons are so disappointed that they don’t get to be martyrs any more that they have to make things up - or decide that two gays holding hands is religious persecution. The people who wrote this movie aren’t very clear on the concept of what philosophy is all about. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/46 "2014-03-15T06:20:30Z")
American Christian persecution cinema, as believable a premise as zombie apocalypse flicks. You can tell because they don’t even try to show what real religious persecution looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/47 "2014-03-15T06:24:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Cue the lions! These morons are so disappointed that they don’t get to be martyrs any more that they have to make things up Or missionaries. Honestly, of all the predictable :smack: and :rolleyes: stuff in that trailer, what pissed me off the most was Plucky Little Christian’s Dreamboat Friend telling Plucky Little Christian he should accept the professor’s challenge because “it might be the only exposure to god and Jesus they [presumably the other students] will ever have”. There aren’t enough fuck youuuus in the entire internet for this line. But back to the debate : I’m not seeing anything in the trailer about the (necessarily nihilistic, angry-at-god-because-his-mama-died strawman atheist) professor’s challenge about an automatic fail if Plucky Little Christian doesn’t manage to actually \*prove \*God. A real philosophy professor would probably be aware that it’s as tricky a proposition as disproving it. If the only outcome where Librul College Guy doesn’t automatically fail Plucky Little Christian is if he manages to prove god exists, then yes, that’s a liiiittle bit unfair. But back in the real world, that would seem to me to be a perfectly valid assignment : “Who believes in god ? You ? Is your belief in god so crucial to you that you can’t even bring yourself to write “god is dead” on a piece of paper ? OK, well I say there’s no god, here’s my lecture supporting this conclusion, next week you get to try and prove the antithesis”, with pass/fail marks being based not at all on whether the student can convince the professor and save him from the woe of disbelief (who gives a shit ? Furthermore, how would a professor of philosophy be swayed by a sophomore’s overnight essay when he’s studied what the greatest minds in history have spent their entire lives pondering to become professor in the first place ?), but simply whether they can build a cogent, coherent argument supporting their evidently deeply held belief and defend it against criticism/Socratic wrangling. Philosophy isn’t about converting people, it’s about explaining, to oneself first and foremost, what you think and expounding/exploring how you think you think. Exploring one’s faith and its possible limits or stretching points falls squarely within that spectrum, neh ? Or it could be the “we play this old game first week, I win because I actually know my shit, and you will all spare me any and all god crap for the rest of the year, deal ?” thing, too 🙂 [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] Agreed, that’s not a line to many atheists would use. [/QUOTE] An atheist ? No, maybe not. A philosophy teacher kicking off a lecture on the works of Hegel or Nietzsche ? It \*is \*a direct quote. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/48 "2014-03-15T11:28:51Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > American Christian persecution cinema, as believable a premise as zombie apocalypse flicks. > > You can tell because they don’t even try to show what real religious persecution looks like. True fact: just as they slipped the piano wire around Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s neck, his last thought was “at least I’m not at some Midwest party college studying in the lounge until my roomate takes the sock off the doorknob.” ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/49 "2014-03-15T12:48:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There’s also this: > Quote: > Originally Posted by Czarcasm > When the one righteous Christian tells him that he will not do so, the professor tells him that he must prove the existence of God, or fail the class. > …which is part of the scenario. Still not about professing a belief, but about constructing an argument. I would even defend failing Plucky under certain circumstances, though not this one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/50 "2014-03-15T13:56:24Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Still not about professing a belief, but about constructing an argument. > > I would even defend failing Plucky under certain circumstances, though not this one. It’s an assignment, which can cause the student to fail the class (but not help him in any way), given to one student student, on the basis of his religion. That’s imposing a subtantial cost, _as a penalty for not professing a belief_. How can that be anything but religious discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/51 "2014-03-15T14:46:33Z")
As a Christian and film lover, let me just say that this is the stupidest fucking premise for a religious movie I have ever seen - and religious movies have already set the bar pretty low. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/52 "2014-03-15T15:08:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Grin! My Physical Anthropology prof gave a similar introduction. She said, “Darwin’s theory may be wrong out there in the real world, but inside this classroom, it will be taken as correct. You aren’t required to accept it, but you are required to comprehend it.” My Biology 101 teacher went the other way. For the section on Darwin, he skipped anything to do with evolution and showed slides of Wedgwood china. Apparently Darwin’s wife belonged to the family that manufactured the stuff. This was a very large state university, by the way, not Liberty University. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/53 "2014-03-15T15:14:06Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > American Christian persecution cinema, as believable a premise as zombie apocalypse flicks. > > You can tell because they don’t even try to show what real religious persecution looks like. I have a feeling this is a new Kirk Cameron movie. He’s a crackpot. And I’m Christian myself. There’s also a Facebook meme circulating that goes like this: Student: I believe in God. Public school teacher: Have you ever seen Him? Student: No. PST: Therefore, He does not exist. Whenever I see this, I remind the poster that if this really happened, that teacher would be heavily censured, and most likely fired on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/54 "2014-03-15T15:17:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Grin! My Physical Anthropology prof gave a similar introduction. She said, “Darwin’s theory may be wrong out there in the real world, but inside this classroom, it will be taken as correct. You aren’t required to accept it, but you are required to comprehend it.” We were told, “We do not demand that you believe it, only that you learn it.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/55 "2014-03-15T15:20:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Per the OP, it’s a philosophy class. Did you miss that? Here: > > It was in the first sentence of the OP, so I can understand why you might have missed it. Per your post that I was replying to, no class subject was specified: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, if a college professor told everyone to take off their clothes or else they fail the class that would be OK? Or is that one of those “rare” occasions, but the the scenario in the OP is not? > > Tenured professors are certainly given a lot of latitude, but I doubt many (if any) colleges or universities in the US would allow the behavior described in the OP. It was in the first sentence of your own post, so I cannot understand why you might have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/56 "2014-03-15T15:40:26Z")
My wife is tenured faculty at UCLA. I asked her how this sort of scenario would probably go down. The student would file a grievance with the university. The university would then have a hearing where the professor would be expected to justify his assignment on pedagogical grounds. If the professor can make a good case that the assignment is actually necessary, then the student is out of luck. However, for something as ridiculous as the assignment in the film, the administration would almost certainly order the professor to change how he teaches the class. If the professor refuses, they can’t fire him, but they can reassign him so he’s no longer teaching that particular class. [There was a recent case](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/16/patricia-adler-deviance_n_4454652.html) at the University of Colorado Boulder where a sociology professor got in trouble over a lecture on prostitution. She’d given the lecture many times (which involved students and teaching assistants role-playing interactions between sex workers and clients) but this year students complained about it. A university investigation is underway – maybe her methods are pedagogically valid and fall under academic freedom, maybe not. In any case, she’s not teaching the course until the issue is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/57 "2014-03-15T16:44:36Z")
While at a community college, [this woman](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/17/math-prof-who-forced-students-to-sign-vote-for-president-obama-pledge-fired/) had tenure. She was fired for forcing students to sign a “Vote for Obama” pledge after a vote by the college’s board of trustees. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/58 "2014-03-15T17:53:09Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > Sounds like the first live-action Jack Chick film. Beat me to it. That or _Chucky Talks to God_ goes big-budget. The evangelicals seem to love to set up these narrow theoreticals (when they don’t claim them to be true) so they can self-flagellate over how terrible their lot is. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/59 "2014-03-15T18:00:11Z")
The first day of one of my philosophy lectures the professor started by introducing herself, "My name is \, radical lesbian feminist. By the second lecture about 2/3 of the male students had dropped the class. Too bad for them. It was a great course. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724/60 "2014-03-15T18:50:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This act would engender one of those fairly rare cases. Watch the trailer when you can, it’s not a rhetorical teaching device, but rather a multi-day showdown between a student, and a professor demanding that he abandon his religion or be failed. Sounds very much to me like what happens to Jews at the Air Force Academy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-this-kind-of-religious-persecution-be-allowed-in-college/683724.md?page=4)