# Would "totin' chips" work in schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245 "2018-01-22T21:22:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/121 "2018-01-26T04:34:49Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I know my son’s school is public and I know the student had a real loaded gun . . .That part was in the paper. I was told by the faculty she wasn’t punished and that they treated it as a sign of potential abuse/neglect, not an infraction. . I suppose that part could be a lie, but why would they cover up an expulsion? I don’t see how they _could_ cover it up even if they would. The federal law is pretty inflexible. I can only guess is your son’s school decided it was better risk tangling with the feds than to expel such a young kid. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/122 "2018-01-26T04:58:50Z")
I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/123 "2018-01-26T09:49:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, but looking at the [original source](http://www.naspcenter.org/factsheets/zt_fs.html), the most recent direct cite is 17 years old. The reason I asked is because I thought these policies had fallen out of favor. I’ve been poking around, and I’m not finding more recent stats. [This article](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/nyregion/suspension-rules-altered-in-new-york-citys-revision-of-school-discipline-code.html?_r=0), from 2015, discusses the general move away from zero tolerance. I can’t access the article, as I’ve used up all my NYT free articles for January. If the NYT article you cited has more recent figures from the U.S. Dept. of Education, or if some other site does, I’d appreciate knowing. Every other site, including the U.S. Dept. of Education site, uses the 1998 figures. I take this to mean there hasn’t been a comprehensive survey done since 1998. It’d be great if the USDE undertook another one. I’m aware of the problems with Zero Tolerance policies and the fact that some schools are starting to move away from them, a change I welcome; however, I’d be reluctant to accept that most schools no longer have Zero Tolerance policies unless there’s data that shows that. A quick perusal of online handbooks from several school districts in the state where I now live as well as a few from the state where I used to live all continue to have Zero Tolerance Policies for weapons, guns and otherwise–which proves little but convinces me the alternatives have yet to be adopted by the majority of schools. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/124 "2018-01-26T11:46:38Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I can’t access the article, as I’ve used up all my NYT free articles for January. If the NYT article you cited has more recent figures from the U.S. Dept. of Education, or if some other site does, I’d appreciate knowing. Every other site, including the U.S. Dept. of Education site, uses the 1998 figures. I take this to mean there hasn’t been a comprehensive survey done since 1998. It’d be great if the USDE undertook another one. Yeah, it doesn’t give new figures, and like I said, I had trouble finding stats. I do know that the big educational movement now is AWAY from the use of suspensions and expulsions. How that intersects with weaponry? I’m having trouble finding out. ---
**Author:** ![TheMightyFro](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/themightyfro/32/20081_2.png) [@TheMightyFro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMightyFro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/125 "2018-01-26T12:36:57Z")
At the school I work in, we have students use scissors all the time. A knife really doesn’t suit any of the tasks we expect our students to accomplish. Also, why would you want to put knives in the hands of children, which seems far more likely to cause problems than solve them? I mean, children in general are known far more than adults to have poor impulse control. If they want to use a knife so bad, join the scouts, or use one at home. Problem solved; if one even existed… ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/126 "2018-01-26T14:41:22Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Draconian they may be, but about 75% of schools still have zero-tolerance policies. Does your son attend a private school? Public schools must comply with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1994, which mandates a one-year expulsion of students bringing guns to school, no exceptions (hence the zero in zero tolerance). Private schools don’t receive federal funds, so have a lot more latitude. This is simply not true; the 1994 law actually does not mandate a one-year explusion, in fact it does the opposite. It requires that the state law have a one-year expulsion as default, but also that it has an exception where the chief administering officer of the local educational agency can modify the requirement on a case-by-case basis. If a state did like you said and mandated “no exceptions”, they would be in violation of the law and ineligible for federal funding. > [@https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/20/7961](#): > > Each State receiving Federal funds under any subchapter of this chapter shall have in effect a State law requiring local educational agencies to expel from school for a period of not less than 1 year a student who is determined to have brought a firearm to a school, or to have possessed a firearm at a school, under the jurisdiction of local educational agencies in that State, **except that such State law shall allow the chief administering officer of a local educational agency to modify such expulsion requirement for a student on a case-by-case basis if such modification is in writing.** ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/127 "2018-01-26T15:16:45Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad. What’s sad about people not knowing how to use a tool for which they have no use? The anderling at 17 doesn’t know how to drive an automobile with a manual transmission. Similarly sad? He thinks it’s bizarre that I don’t know how to root my phone. Sad? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/128 "2018-01-26T15:42:37Z")
LHoD, I’m curious: how do you think your school would react to a 1st grader with a loaded gun? I heard two versions of the story–one, that she brought the gun to show her teacher, and the other, that a parent had put the gun in her backpack to hide it and then forgot it and the girl didn’t even know it was there. I don’t know that it makes any difference. I was really impressed with the school: it’s a largely-minority, title 1 school, so it wasn’t a matters of “these rules aren’t for nice white kids!” or anything. I was really impressed, honestly. A few years ago, at a school I taught at, we had a kid legitimately accidently taze a teachers. A second kid gave him the taser and told him it was a joke buzzer type thing. It was instead a pretty powerful device, the strongest you can buy in Texas as a non-LEO. Everyone who knew the kids involved believed the story: this was a good kid and he had a great relationship with the teacher. No way it was intentional. Anyway, if I recall correctly they had to suspend the kid for 3 days, but that was as far as it went. And this is in a huge urban district. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/129 "2018-01-26T16:38:40Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > LHoD, I’m curious: how do you think your school would react to a 1st grader with a loaded gun? I heard two versions of the story–one, that she brought the gun to show her teacher, and the other, that a parent had put the gun in her backpack to hide it and then forgot it and the girl didn’t even know it was there. I don’t know that it makes any difference. I was really impressed with the school: it’s a largely-minority, title 1 school, so it wasn’t a matters of “these rules aren’t for nice white kids!” or anything. I was really impressed, honestly. I really hope it’d be handled that way, and am cautiously optimistic that it would. The last school I taught at? I’d be pretty pessimistic about it being handled that way. But I dunno: our entire district is moving much more in a direction of trying to understand student behavior and work to reshape it through less punitive measures, so maybe that school has changed since I was there. I’ve never heard of a real weapon coming to this school. Fake weapons, like Halloween daggers? I tend to hold them till the end of the day then give them back along with a stern warning. What kids get in serious trouble for is actually hurting or actually threatening someone, not for zero-tolerance nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/130 "2018-01-26T17:02:42Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad. That’s more the fault of manufacturers coming up with new and different opening and locking mechanisms. A grandpa who carries an Old Timer for 50 years would be lost with some of today’s knives. Someone was recently showing me their new knife and after a few seconds falling to get it open, I realized the thing that looked like a rivet might be the trigger for an assisted opener. Sure enough, that worked. Then to close it I first looked for a lock on the back, then a liner lock, and finally gave up and asked. The lock was part of the button for the opener. I tried that and still couldn’t close it one handed like I usually do. I couldn’t even budge the blade and thought I hadn’t unlocked it. I realized that an assisted opener, which I’m fairly unfamiliar with, would have spring tension that might make it hard to close and sure enough, this one had a lot of tension and required two hands to even think about closing it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/131 "2018-01-26T22:55:10Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > I carry a pocket knife all the time. I had occasion to give to a student for some task. He had no idea how to use the little safety thing to close it. Since then, I have asked a lot of people. Very few know how to use a pocket knife. That seems sad. I, for one, know how to use one - my grandad was adamant it was one of life’s “must-have” basic survival skills, because in his words “you never know when you’re going to run into a stubborn _saucisson_”. To be fair he was Auvergnat, their dried sausage is often akin to dwarf bread : equally useful as a food item and as a blunt weapon :D. Sadly, his own pocket knife went to some cousin when he died and I never got around to getting one of my own. I deffo should now that I think about it - bottle opener, [Opinel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel_knife)and condoms should be about one’s \*\*adult \*\*self at all times. Better to have one and not etc etc. Schools though ? Hell, the teachers would even insist on dull scissors. As they should have. Kids are retards, teenagers doubly so. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/132 "2018-01-26T23:51:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > {…} bottle opener, [Opinel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinel_knife)and condoms should be about one’s \*\*adult \*\*self at all times. Better to have one and not etc etc. {…} OFF TOPIC: Flashlight and way to start a fire too. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/133 "2018-01-27T00:52:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The burden of making a compelling case should be on those wishing to ban them. I haven’t seen one yet. Care to try? Why? The thread was started with the premise that knives should be allowed in school – so it should be up to the person who made that argument to prove their case. And so fair, I have yet to see them do so, other than an instance where someone wasn’t able to peel an orange. And an alternative was presented, with other suggestions on how to do so. On the other hand, I have seen people present cases where it would be a bad idea to have knives in school. Scissors, pencils, etc – a lack of them would be a major hardship, so the risk is worth it. Pocket knives? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/134 "2018-01-27T01:10:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why? Because school isn’t prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn’t ban everything that doesn’t have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn’t have a good argument for banning it. I realize that’s a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/135 "2018-01-27T01:24:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Because school isn’t prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn’t ban everything that doesn’t have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn’t have a good argument for banning it. I realize that’s a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18. My wife got to spend 90 minutes this evening shepherding a dozen brownie scouts through a few different activities; afterward, with haggard eyes, she told me how she appreciated my daily work. Which is to say, your theory about children is just ducky, and I invite you to sub in a local school for a while. Teach kids who have watched older brothers get shot, whose uncles have been murdered, whose dads are in jail, who are experiencing gender dysphoria, who get irregularly medicated for ADHD, who are natural dancers and could easily jitterbug for six hours a day but who must learn math at their seats, who suck on thumbtacks for the stimulation it provides, who eat goddamned leaves on a dare, and THEN come back to tell us what overprotective pantywaists we teachers are. Seriously, how insulting. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/136 "2018-01-27T02:15:36Z")
Notice how the people (person) advocating for knives has never been in a class room other than as a student. Walk a kilometer in my Bass Weegens and you’ll be singing a different aria. And no, we do not have to show why knives ought not be allowed. The burden is on those who know nothing to prove that they should. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/137 "2018-01-27T02:22:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Seriously, how insulting. I certainly didn’t intend to insult you or teachers generally. And I apologize for doing so. I’m sure whatever rules you and your wife have in your classrooms are in place for very good reasons. I was just explaining my philosophy of blacklisting versus whitelisting when it comes to raising kids and the prohibition of various items they might come in contact with, after being asked. They’re going to grow up and be full fledged adults in the blink of an eye. I personally feel more comfortable when kids have been exposed to a wide spectrum of “the real world” before we send them out into it. Despite coming from different perspectives, I suspect we would agree more than you might think based on this thread. I’d argue that “having a knife on school property” is not at all the same thing as “allowed to play with knives in class” for example. And there’s also a huge difference between preschoolers and high schoolers. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245/138 "2018-01-27T03:27:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Because school isn’t prison, and kids are still people, even if young. We shouldn’t ban everything that doesn’t have a good argument for allowing it, we should allow everything that doesn’t have a good argument for banning it. I realize that’s a difference in our fundamental philosophies about children and people in general. The way I look at it is that our job as adults is to guide children into adulthood by showing them and teaching them how to be adults, not to pad their environment and protect their wittle soft bodies until we unleash them on the world at age 18. Okay fine, so that’s your argument. Others have, however, put forward some good reasons why allowing knives in school wouldn’t be such a great idea. And it’s not because they’re trying to “protect their wittle soft bodies”. :rolleyes: More like trying to avoid any additional hassles – schools have enough shit to deal with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-totin-chips-work-in-schools/807245.md?page=6)