# Would universal healthcare be more expensive or less than the current US system? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175 "2009-02-24T08:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/361 "2009-03-14T02:02:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well **I** do - what does it matter if the detail is moving for health insurance or moving for lower taxes? The point is that you move to a place more advantageous than where you are now. Aside from everything else, we _are_ in the place that is the most advantageous for us. > [@](#): > > First, I fail to see how the weather in Indiana will “cripple” you. That would be because - surprise! - you don’t know everything. > [@](#): > > In any case, you claim to be disabled, so it’s really a matter of more or less crippled, if even that. I mean, we DO have disabled people in my state and they manage to get around despite the weather. That’s nice. However, I imagine you don’t know them all, nor what your winters might do to the ones who have the combination of problems that I happen to have. > [@](#): > > And I didn’t suggest it so you can “waste” money on a UHC - I sincerely suggested it as a means to lower your tax burden and put more of your money back in your pocket. It’s not like anyone is out to “get” you or “steal” your money with that suggestion. OK. Amid all of that demand that I pony up for the UHC, you had one place where you were concerned for my finances. Since I’ve already explained why simply moving isn’t going to make anything better, and would probably make it worse, it is a dead issue. > [@](#): > > Poor little rich girl. No matter how many times you say that, it won’t come true (too bad for me! 🆒) ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/362 "2009-03-14T03:06:52Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Do you _really_ think those are the same things?? You making the choice to go whereveryouare to get insurance is the same thing as telling me to move to Indiana (where the weather is likely to cripple me) so I’ll have money to waste on a UHC? Can you really not see how incredibly selfish you are being? > > No, there is nothing wrong with leaving home - I made the choice to move to California after 35 years in Washington. The difference, besides it being far better for me, was it was a choice, and not a requirement because bleeding hearts want me to pay for something else to give to the “less fortunate”. Sure its the same. I had a choice of staying in Nevada with no health insurance, or moving somewhere else where I had health insurance (not to mention a much lower cost of living and lower taxes). It came at the price of a poorer infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/363 "2009-03-14T03:10:45Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Whee! First he was making $126,000 and now it’s $140,000! Too bad it’s not true… You said that you pay 30% tax and that that amounts to $3500 monthly. Simple math shows that an income of $140,000 is $11,666.67 per month and 30% tax on that would be $3500. Your numbers. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/364 "2009-03-14T03:20:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > On the other hand, since I’m not nearly so bitter as you, or so selfish as you, and I actually find I have the means and ability to help others beyond my immediate friends and family… I probably have the better life overall. Despite the lower income. Huh, another interesting assumption. Because I am not interested in pouring yet more money down another government rat hole, aimed at making people even more dependent, somehow this translates into me being bitter, selfish and unable to help anyone in need. You do realize that because I’m not interested in supporting every one of your pet projects, that doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with me, right? Or are you that narrow minded that you cannot see that? > [@](#): > > Actually, MY health care problem is solved at the moment. You can’t seem to understand that I want UHC for the benefit of _other people_ besides myself. Because I am generous and you, apparently, are not. Ah. So all of that about your husband’s medical problems, your financial problems and how lucky you were to get into the pool was just chit chat? > [@](#): > > Oh, but you ARE wealthy! Even if you don’t feel that you are. As I said, I am supporting two people, one of them disabled, on _half of what you pay in taxes a month!_ That means… what, I have 1/6 the income you do? You are indeed wealthy compared to me. Why does calling yourself upper class trouble you so? None of this “troubles” me, so don’t you worry about that. I am just amazed that you cannot grasp the difference between making X in California and making X in Indiana. But then, you don’t seem to grasp the difference between Canada or the UK and the US… I may be wealthy compared to you, that doesn’t translate into me actually _being_ wealthy, and it certainly doesn’t translate into me having a bunch of money just laying around. > [@](#): > > I’m not the freeloader you assume I am, even if I am officially poor. At what point did I call you a freeloader? > [@](#): > > Oh, gosh - I pay my bills, take care of a dependent, and owe no one money and yet you call me irresponsible? How can that be? How more responsible can one be than paying the bills and owing no money to anyone? Responsible people do not expect that others will pay for things for them, much less get all pissy when it doesn’t happen. > [@](#): > > It’s actually a pretty good yardstick. Not all by itself, but this does give a clue as to why you think UHC success elsewhere must automatically mean it would succeed here. > [@](#): > > Not knowing his field I really couldn’t say, however, Indiana is about more than just growing corn and steel mills. You seem to know little about us. And I rather doubt you know anything about project engineers in durable medical equipment. As it stands, there is exactly one place in all of the state of Indiana that might have a job for my husband, which he turned down last year due to the unsuitability of the weather. Yes, at that point in the housing market, we could have purchased a house out there for cash with the equity in this one, but his drop in salary would have wiped out most of the savings from lack of a mortgage. And since I want my husband to be happy, I also didn’t think him having to commute long distances in bad weather was a good idea. > [@](#): > > In any case, after he retires and his income is no longer tied to a location think about it then - you could have California pensions and much lower cost of living elsewhere. That is what my father-in-law did, he worked in Chicago for decades, then retired to Tennessee with its mild climate and no state income tax. We are very happy here, and provided the government doesn’t levy too many new taxes on us, we will be able to remain here just fine. > [@](#): > > I see no reason to get upset about it, why do you? You thought I was upset at the guesses?? I thought they were funny! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/365 "2009-03-14T03:25:06Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > That’s nice. However, I imagine you don’t know them all, nor what your winters might do to the ones who have the combination of problems that I happen to have. Since you have not described your problems (which you are under no obligation to do, of course) of course I can not make that determination. However, it is most unfair of you to criticize my lack of knowledge when you deliberately withhold information. If you were to describe your problems I might even agree with you that our winters (or any other season) would be detrimental, but until I know the particulars (which, as I pointed out, you are under no obligation to reveal) then I will be skeptical as most disabled people could exist in our climate. > [@](#): > > OK. Amid all of that demand that I pony up for the UHC, you had one place where you were concerned for my finances. Is that a problem, that I expressed even a small concern for your finances? Contrary to what you believe I do not wish you to suffer. I don’t wish anyone to suffer, in fact. I don’t know why you’re getting upset at the notion of someone suggesting an alternative location that is less burdensome as far as taxes go. Of course, if there are other reasons that doing so is impractical then don’t move - but you seem to be upset that we don’t know the whole story when you keep so closed-lipped. As I said, you don’t _have to_ tell us anything, but you elected to tell us some and we have commented based on what you choose to tell us. > [@](#): > > Since I’ve already explained why simply moving isn’t going to make anything better, and would probably make it worse, it is a dead issue. _\>shrug\<_ OK, moving is out - so stop complaining about the taxes. Because you’ve obviously decided the taxes are less evil than some other thing. You made your choice, I hope you find happiness with it, but it seems you aren’t. Which is sad. I feel sorry for you, living with such unhappiness despite your wealth. I suppose that’s proof that money doesn’t buy happiness. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/366 "2009-03-14T04:09:52Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Sure its the same. I had a choice of staying in Nevada with no health insurance, or moving somewhere else where I had health insurance (not to mention a much lower cost of living and lower taxes). It came at the price of a poorer infrastructure. - shakes head trying to clear it \* You honestly don’t see any different between you locating in your own self interest, and telling me that we should relocate so that we can afford to fund a program you want? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/367 "2009-03-14T04:13:25Z")
I was suggesting that it is your choice to live in California, that’s all. You can live anywhere you like, but since you have chosen California, you should not complain about paying 30% tax. You could move 200 miles to Nevada and pay no state income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/368 "2009-03-14T04:24:28Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I was suggesting that it is your choice to live in California, that’s all. You can live anywhere you like, but since you have chosen California, you should not complain about paying 30% tax. You could move 200 miles to Nevada and pay no state income tax. And you can stay in the Czech Republic and stop complaining about the healthcare system in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/369 "2009-03-14T04:30:41Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > And you can stay in the Czech Republic and stop complaining about the healthcare system in Arizona. Actually, since I am not a citizen of the Czech Republic, my time there is limited unless I want to become an illegal alien… which could get me banned from the EU for a number of years. To avoid becoming illegal, I lived for about 18 months with no home, constantly on the move as I was not a legal resident of anywhere. My stuff remains in storage in Nevada. I currently have a “home” - for the next 6 weeks, but in the last 7 years, I have never stayed in one place for more than 4 months. I’ll probably “live” in half a dozen countries this year… keeping on the move to stay legal. Everything I travel with fits in a backpack. Just a laptop computer and clothes. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/370 "2009-03-14T04:36:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Responsible people do not expect that others will pay for things for them, much less get all pissy when it doesn’t happen. If this is your definition, then I expect that you’ll be letting go of your insurance immediately, or you, by your own words, are irresponsible. The implicit contract of being insured is that if there comes a time that you need care, you will receive it and it will be paid _even if the cost exceeds what you pay into the system_. Every day that you have insurance, you are tacitly proclaiming that if your disability worsens, or you develop a disease or if you fall getting out of your shower and brain yourself on the edge of the toilet, you’ll **expect** that others – the others who pay into your insurer’s coffers with their premiums – will pay for things for you. By your own definition, you are irresponsible, and by your own implications, you are selfish. If you’re not willing to pay your own way, that is, straight cash out of your $100,000+ income, whatever it may be, then you are your own picture of someone who isn’t responsible. Own your words, act commensurately. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/371 "2009-03-14T04:47:01Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > You said that you pay 30% tax and that that amounts to $3500 monthly. > > Simple math shows that an income of $140,000 is $11,666.67 per month and 30% tax on that would be $3500. > > Your numbers. Yeah, and one is wrong - I had to go back and look at the post because I couldn’t figure out where you’d gotten $3500. From my fingers, sigh. That should be $2500. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/372 "2009-03-14T05:11:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > However, it is most unfair of you to criticize my lack of knowledge when you deliberately withhold information. If you were to describe your problems I might even agree with you that our winters (or any other season) would be detrimental, but until I know the particulars (which, as I pointed out, you are under no obligation to reveal) then I will be skeptical as most disabled people could exist in our climate. Snort. So unless I prove to you that I know what my limitations are, you are going to assume that your winters wouldn’t be an issue for me? Do you realize there is a difference between “exist” and “decent quality of life”? > [@](#): > > Is that a problem, that I expressed even a small concern for your finances? Just odd, considering you went from being demanding and insulting to concern over my budget… > [@](#): > > I don’t know why you’re getting upset at the notion of someone suggesting an alternative location that is less burdensome as far as taxes go. Upset? Hardly. > [@](#): > > _\>shrug\<_ OK, moving is out - so stop complaining about the taxes. Ah, because I choose to live here, it is OK for the fed and state to waste money and continue to create even more taxes for me to pay? > [@](#): > > I feel sorry for you, living with such unhappiness despite your wealth. Oh fercrissakes. I don’t have “wealth” and the fact that I don’t feel like paying out even more doesn’t make me unhappy. Where do you get these ideas? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/373 "2009-03-14T05:13:02Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I was suggesting that it is your choice to live in California, that’s all. You can live anywhere you like, but since you have chosen California, you should not complain about paying 30% tax. You could move 200 miles to Nevada and pay no state income tax. I would complain about paying taxes no matter where I lived, since so much of it is wasted. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/374 "2009-03-14T05:14:15Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yeah, and one is wrong - I had to go back and look at the post because I couldn’t figure out where you’d gotten $3500. From my fingers, sigh. That should be $2500. Which still gives you a six figure income, puts you well above the national median, and out of the most generous definition of the middle class. If that 100k doesn’t go so far in California, as has been suggested by others, relocation is in your best interests, even if a pay cut is involved. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/375 "2009-03-14T05:15:08Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > If this is your definition, then I expect that you’ll be letting go of your insurance immediately, or you, by your own words, are irresponsible. The implicit contract of being insured is that if there comes a time that you need care, you will receive it and it will be paid _even if the cost exceeds what you pay into the system_. Every day that you have insurance, you are tacitly proclaiming that if your disability worsens, or you develop a disease or if you fall getting out of your shower and brain yourself on the edge of the toilet, you’ll **expect** that others – the others who pay into your insurer’s coffers with their premiums – will pay for things for you. > > By your own definition, you are irresponsible, and by your own implications, you are selfish. > > If you’re not willing to pay your own way, that is, straight cash out of your $100,000+ income, whatever it may be, then you are your own picture of someone who isn’t responsible. > > Own your words, act commensurately. Don’t be an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/376 "2009-03-14T05:22:32Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I would complain about paying taxes no matter where I lived, since so much of it is wasted. You could move to Dubai - not unlike Mojave, California, but more humid… and zero tax. Of course as an American, you will always pay tax on earnings above about $87K. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/377 "2009-03-14T05:25:12Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Which still gives you a six figure income, puts you well above the national median, and out of the most generous definition of the middle class. If that 100k doesn’t go so far in California, as has been suggested by others, relocation is in your best interests, even if a pay cut is involved. Just because 100k sounds like a whole lot to you, it doesn’t follow that it is. For one thing, you all keep quoting the national median, meaning that there are higher incomes in some areas that are still considered middle class. And since 100K is just one K more than the national average, why is it you cannot grasp that in an area where things cost more, that extra thousand doesn’t make anyone rich? Now, WRT relocation, in an area where the cost of living is less, the salaries also tend to be less. So, we move to Nevada or Indiana, make less and pay less and it ends up being a wash. And, this is all totally beside the point anyway. Whether we are high middle class or lower upper class, I still do not want to have to pay more taxes. Even Bill Gates has the right to resent having to pay in to so much waste. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/378 "2009-03-14T05:41:16Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Huh, another interesting assumption. Because I am not interested in pouring yet more money down another government rat hole, aimed at making people even more dependent, somehow this translates into me being bitter, selfish and unable to help anyone in need. Curlcoat, although there is a moral argument to be made, the main reason for a UHC is economic. It has been pointed out in this and the last thread that the U.S. health care system is unsustainable. This fact is acknowledged by right and left leaning policy institutes. Even the economically conservative Business Round Table issued a recent press release confirming the impact of increasing health care costs on U.S. competitiveness and job creation. The U.S. government spends more on health care than other developed countries with universal health systems and a higher standard of living. Health care accounts for the largest portion of the government’s budget short fall, but without government subsidies the system will collapse. The question is how to fix it. You are concerned about taxes. Think of your insurance premium as a tax. On top of your premium, you pay taxes to subsidize private insurance for the wealthy and government care for the destitute, low income children, the elderly, and veterans. It doesn’t seem like a great leap to just nationalize the entire system. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/379 "2009-03-14T06:09:45Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > You could move to Dubai - not unlike Mojave, California, but more humid… and zero tax. Of course as an American, you will always pay tax on earnings above about $87K. I don’t live any where near Mojave and humidity is gross. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/380 "2009-03-14T06:16:40Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > It doesn’t seem like a great leap to just nationalize the entire system. I don’t really care if they want to nationalize the system, I just don’t want the government running it in any way. I’d also want it to be opt-out & not be funded by taxes. I haven’t seen any posts advocating any of that. Basically, I don’t want to be forced to be on the same policy as people that think it’s a good idea to have five kids they can’t afford, who cannot work due to drug addiction, who have high-risk habits. I’m tired of paying for bailouts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=20)