# Would universal healthcare be more expensive or less than the current US system? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175 "2009-02-24T08:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/381 "2009-03-14T06:50:39Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I don’t really care if they want to nationalize the system, I just don’t want the government running it in any way. I’d also want it to be opt-out & not be funded by taxes. I haven’t seen any posts advocating any of that. > > Basically, I don’t want to be forced to be on the same policy as people that think it’s a good idea to have five kids they can’t afford, who cannot work due to drug addiction, who have high-risk habits. I’m tired of paying for bailouts. If the President can get his plan passed, it will be optional. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/382 "2009-03-14T07:17:28Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > If the President can get his plan passed, it will be optional. One out of three probably won’t make me like it ad does make me hope it doesn’t pass. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/383 "2009-03-15T03:07:01Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Don’t be an idiot. Ignoring the fact that you’re skirting a fine line of insults outside the Pit, in what way was anything that I said incorrect? You say that responsible people don’t expect others to pay their way. That is the definition of how insurance operates. If you want to continue to claim to be responsible, then you will drop your insurance or admit that you don’t meet your own definition. It’s really that simple. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/384 "2009-03-15T04:18:39Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Ignoring the fact that you’re skirting a fine line of insults outside the Pit, in what way was anything that I said incorrect? You say that responsible people don’t expect others to pay their way. That is the definition of how insurance operates. If you want to continue to claim to be responsible, then you will drop your insurance or admit that you don’t meet your own definition. It’s really that simple. Ah, it’s ok for you to cast aspertions on my character but I can’t do the same? Gotcha. Now, if you didn’t continually claim you know how insurance works I would explain to you why you are silly (am I allowed to say that?) to call me irresponsible for having an insurance policy, when the opposite is actually true. Making claims you cannot back up will eventually come back to bite you. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/385 "2009-03-15T08:28:05Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Ah, it’s ok for you to cast aspertions on my character but I can’t do the same? Gotcha. > > Now, if you didn’t continually claim you know how insurance works I would explain to you why you are silly (am I allowed to say that?) to call me irresponsible for having an insurance policy, when the opposite is actually true. Making claims you cannot back up will eventually come back to bite you. All right, let’s break this down into steps. In the case of illness or injury, someone with insurance expects for that insurance to cover the costs associated with the medical treatment of said illness or injury, within whatever limits spelled out in the policy guidelines, is this correct? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/386 "2009-03-16T03:42:08Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > All right, let’s break this down into steps. In the case of illness or injury, someone with insurance expects for that insurance to cover the costs associated with the medical treatment of said illness or injury, within whatever limits spelled out in the policy guidelines, is this correct? Sorry, I’m not going to play this game. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/387 "2009-03-16T13:37:55Z")
Of course you aren’t - it would force you to admit that you aren’t as independent and invulnerable as you like to believe. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/388 "2009-03-16T18:24:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Of course you aren’t - it would force you to admit that you aren’t as independent and invulnerable as you like to believe. No, I am not going to spend a bunch of time watching **tumbleddown** try to get proof that insurance companies don’t want us to buy policies and aren’t making profits on it. Or that it is more responsible to _not_ have health insurance, ferchrissakes. Oh, almost forgot, I’ve never said anything about independent. I have been at least partially dependent on my husband since 1993. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/389 "2009-03-17T21:52:32Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > No, I am not going to spend a bunch of time watching **tumbleddown** try to get proof that insurance companies don’t want us to buy policies and aren’t making profits on it. Or that it is more responsible to _not_ have health insurance, ferchrissakes. Neither of which were my point. My point was that for all of your stereotyping and aspersion-casting, you are exactly what you decry: someone who, in time of illness or injury, expect that someone else (the insurance company via the body of policyholders) will pay your way when your bills exceed your own contribution. And this is _because that’s how insurance works_. But that’s fine when it’s you, and somehow not fine for people who don’t have an income as high as yours, or are high risk and therefore are charged twice as much for the same (or inferior) product, or cannot get the product at all. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/390 "2009-03-18T00:32:53Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Neither of which were my point. My point was that for all of your stereotyping and aspersion-casting, you are exactly what you decry: someone who, in time of illness or injury, expect that someone else (the insurance company via the body of policyholders) will pay your way when your bills exceed your own contribution. And this is _because that’s how insurance works_. If you actual knew how insurance _companies_ work, those **would** end up being your points. But, as you keep proving, you don’t know how the industry works. > [@](#): > > But that’s fine when it’s you, and somehow not fine for people who don’t have an income as high as yours, or are high risk and therefore are charged twice as much for the same (or inferior) product, or cannot get the product at all. Again, I will not and in fact cannot be responsible for every person in this country who do not have everything they want and/or need. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/391 "2009-03-18T01:04:05Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > If you actual knew how insurance _companies_ work, those **would** end up being your points. But, as you keep proving, you don’t know how the industry works. > > Again, I will not and in fact cannot be responsible for every person in this country who do not have everything they want and/or need. Why should the other people who have insurance through the same company be responsible for you in the event you use more services than you paid in for? PS: As expected, today I received notice that I was declined for insurance yet again. I can try again next year, but my condition is an auto-decline so it is pointless (so they said). WooHoo!!! Great system we have. :rolleyes: On days like this I like to wear my “Down with USA” T-Shirt from Iran. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/392 "2009-03-18T02:05:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Don’t be an idiot. Haha you make over $100,000? No wonder you were so scared to tell me how much you paid in taxes in the pit last summer. It makes your claims of “destitution” look hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/393 "2009-03-18T02:45:10Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Why should the other people who have insurance through the same company be responsible for you in the event you use more services than you paid in for? Because they aren’t. First, insurance companies set their premiums based on what their accuaries tell them will cover a high percentage of the subscribers, so it isn’t often that people go way over what they/their employers pay. Second, insurance companies invest the money we pay in, so a subscriber has to use up well over what they/their employers pay in before they are actually taking money out. Third, me personally - I have never been on maternity nor raised children, which are the biggest money sucks for insurance companies until folks get into old age. I’ve been paying group insurance premiums for almost 27 years so even if I do get something expensive, I’ve got quite a bit of money invested in the insurance system. All of which would have been semi-obvious if folks would just remember - insurance companies are for-profit businesses! > [@](#): > > WooHoo!!! Great system we have. :rolleyes: Yeah, it’s really too bad that we don’t have a multi-billion dollar bureaucracy in place to cover rare cases… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/394 "2009-03-18T02:49:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Haha you make over $100,000? No wonder you were so scared to tell me how much you paid in taxes in the pit last summer. It makes your claims of “destitution” look hysterical. My husband makes just under that. As for “destitution” and last summer, he & I were unemployed last summer - he didn’t get this job under this past November. What does that have to do with whatever you are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/395 "2009-03-18T04:18:23Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yeah, it’s really too bad that we don’t have a multi-billion dollar bureaucracy in place to cover rare cases… :rolleyes: Nah, instead of helping our own people get proper medical care, we use that money to go kill people in other countries. There are more than 100,000 people in the US with my condition… I don’t think that is so rare. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/396 "2009-03-18T06:39:50Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Nah, instead of helping our own people get proper medical care, we use that money to go kill people in other countries. Which, of course, has nothing to do with the subject. > [@](#): > > There are more than 100,000 people in the US with my condition… I don’t think that is so rare. How many of them are uninsured? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/397 "2009-03-18T06:58:40Z")
There are more than 100,000 people in the US with my condition… I don’t think that is so rare. > [@curlcoat](#): > > How many of them are uninsured? 43,691 😉 Why should anyone be uninsured? As a country we have options and have chosen to spend vast amounts on our military which is a destructive force rather than medical care which is constructive. It doesn’t affect you though, so don’t worry about it. I pay far more in tax than I ever get in return - esp not living in the USA, but I am willing to pay more so that everyone can have insurance. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/398 "2009-03-18T07:15:09Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > 43,691 😉 You got this number where? > [@](#): > > Why should anyone be uninsured? As a country we have options and have chosen to spend vast amounts on our military which is a destructive force rather than medical care which is constructive. Again, that has nothing to do with the subject. The politicians of this country will always think it “important” to go invade some country, and there isn’t anything we can do about it. So, the issue isn’t how to get TPTB to quit spending money on wars and on things you want. > [@](#): > > I pay far more in tax than I ever get in return - esp not living in the USA, but I am willing to pay more so that everyone can have insurance. Go right ahead, I certainly won’t stop you. Just don’t expect everyone to want to contribute to your personal preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/399 "2009-03-18T07:31:30Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You got this number where? I guessed. I honestly have no idea, but do know that roughly 40% of all the people I know have no insurance. I understand that because YOU have insurance it is not a concern for you and that I and 40% of the people I know must be irresponsible. I am not really sure why I keep up this discussion. :rolleyes: Since you seem to think the reason I can’t get insurance is because of my higher risk factor… ok. Why then can’t I get insurance which _excludes_ all factors related to my condition. Nope, can’t get that either. So if I get hit by a bus, I just sue the bus company I guess. The 100,000 comes from here: [http://www.ctf.org/Living-with-NF/facts-a-statistics.html](http://www.ctf.org/Living-with-NF/facts-a-statistics.html) “The Neurofibromatoses are genetically-determined disorders which affect more than 100,000 Americans; this makes NF more prevalent than Cystic Fibrosis, hereditary Muscular Dystrophy, Huntington’s Disease and Tay Sachs combined.” ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/400 "2009-03-18T07:58:53Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Because they aren’t. First, insurance companies set their premiums based on what their accuaries tell them will cover a high percentage of the subscribers, so it isn’t often that people go way over what they/their employers pay. Second, insurance companies invest the money we pay in, so a subscriber has to use up well over what they/their employers pay in before they are actually taking money out. And when someone develops cancer, or their child does (and believe you me, doctors are extraordinarily aggressive with cancer in children) any balance on the paid in vs. paid out scale goes out the window. When someone is in a car accident and requires high level trauma care, any balance on the paid in vs. paid out scale goes out the window. (Even moreso if they’re injured with other members of their covered family.) Organ transplant? (That happens 30,000 times a year.) Balance gone. Even though insurance companies _never_ pay all the costs associated with a transplant and find every reason not to pay for anything associated. (They’re currently denying coverage to my friend should a _heart_ become available to her because she’s 14 pounds overweight. Her doctors have no problem with her weight and tell her it will be helpful to her in recovery. She cannot exercise because her heart is about to explode, and her doctors have told her that under no circumstance should she diet. The insurance company doesn’t care, overweight = not eligible for any coverage for a new heart.) Open heart surgery and follow-up rehab and medication? Balance gone. > [@](#): > > All of which would have been semi-obvious if folks would just remember - insurance companies are for-profit businesses! Yes, and they maximize their profit by denying coverage to people like Desert Nomad, denying it to people like me unless we pay twice as much for the exact same product, denying it to people like my friend in situations where their reasons directly contravene medical advice, denying it to my former boss who neglected to call ahead for authorization for care when his son got _run over by a car_ and they scooped him up and drove him 2 blocks to the nearest hospital with multiple life threatening injuries, (they wanted them to take him to a hospital 30 minutes away, apparently, it took a lawsuit to get their decision reversed) and cutting lowball deals with hospitals where after all the money that’s paid into them, they still don’t pay hospitals the full cost of procedures and services anyway. They play with people’s lives and wellbeing to put dollars into people’s pockets. It says a lot about our shared morality that so many people think that this is the best that we can or **should** do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=21)