# Would universal healthcare be more expensive or less than the current US system? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175 "2009-02-24T08:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/81 "2009-02-28T15:54:04Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I am healthy and have been my whole life. I have absolutely no problems with the fact that I’ve probably contributed maybe $75,000 to $100,000 to the health care system over 25 working years and used very little in return. Good for you, but someone like yourself who wants to put money into the health care system without getting anything back can still do so without government coercion. Universal healthcare is about forcing people who _don’t_ want to put money into the health care system without getting anything back to do so anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/82 "2009-02-28T15:59:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Good for you, but someone like yourself who wants to put money into the health care system without getting anything back can still do so without government coercion. Universal healthcare is about forcing people who _don’t_ want to put money into the health care system without getting anything back to do so anyway. Sort of like education? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/83 "2009-02-28T16:07:36Z")
Or police services, or fire services, or the court system, or highways… ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/84 "2009-02-28T17:01:54Z")
Exactly. I pay for schools and have no children. I pay for the fire department but have never called them. I pay for the police but have never called them. I’ve never used the court system either. I don’t even live in the USA (but I’d like to… it’s my country after all). There should be free basic medical care as it improves society just as does education and the fire/police. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/85 "2009-02-28T17:06:00Z")
Judging by the difference in income taxes between Canada and the U.S. I’d like to state that U.H.C is not, in fact, free. ---
**Author:** ![TooSchoolforCool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tooschoolforcool/32/19621_2.png) [@TooSchoolforCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TooSchoolforCool)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/86 "2009-02-28T17:11:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Recall a few years back that insurance companies began sending post-partum mothers home after a 24 hour stay in the hospital, instead of 48. There was a huge brouhaha, and some state legislatures passed bills requiring insurance companies to cover the whole 48 hours. Not because of medical necessity - there was no major difference in post-partum outcome from a 48 vs. 24 hour stay. And it saved money. But it wasn’t popular. The insurance companies were willing to say No. The politicians weren’t. This is my single biggest worry about UHC. That it puts politicians directly on the line for popular outcry in terms of what medical decisions are best. Anyone that wants to seriously grapple with the issue MUST address this problem, and explain how we could be 100% certain that any system we do implement would somehow counter this danger. Because otherwise, no matter what the administrative and insurance savings, costs are still going to spiral out of control. ---
**Author:** ![bare](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bare/32/471_2.png) [@bare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bare)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/87 "2009-02-28T19:03:23Z")
Whenever I see people comparing the costs of Universal Health Care to our system here in the States, I seldom hear them mention that approximately 50% of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/88 "2009-02-28T23:33:55Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > [Or you could place your trust in politicians to decide who is worthy of treatment and who’s not.](http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/printarticle.aspx?feed=PR&date=20090212&id=9605209) > [@curlcoat](#): > > Whoa. Where was this article when I was trying to convince people in the Pit that the government can’t be trusted to take good care of us?? 😃 The false idea that the government will monitoring doctors and guide treatment was completely fabricated by a lobbyist for a bio-tech firm. These are tactics designed to scare people, and I am sure the falsehoods and scare tactics will only get worse. > [@](#): > > Betsy McCaughey, a Republican former lieutenant governor of New York, claims that the bill creates a “new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology.” Not true. The office was created in 2004 by President Bush. McCaughey, an adjunct fellow at the conservative Hudson Institute, also says the office “will monitor treatments” and " ‘guide’ your doctor’s decisions." But that’s nothing new. Bush’s initiative called for creating a health IT system to transmit information to “guide medical decisions.” (McCaughey became a Democrat in 1997 and ran for governor of New York against her former boss, George Pataki.) [FactCheck](http://www.factcheck.org/politics/doctors_orders.html) [Betsy McCaughey paid lobbyist](http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/02/13/mccaughey-biotech/) [Shills](http://mediamatters.org/items/200902100001) [Fear Mongers](http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/02/11/betsy-mccaughey/) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/89 "2009-03-01T04:31:00Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I pay for schools and have no children. You have no children now, but you were once a child. I assume that you received schooling at that time. (I do disagree with the United States’ apparently unique position on the taxation of non-resident citizens, but that’s another subject) > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Or police services, or fire services, or the court system, or highways… The police, fire services, court system, military and vaccinations all provide public goods. Catching and punishing a criminal doesn’t just benefit the victim, it benefits the entire community. Similarly, combatting fire, armies and contagious diseases protects everyone who might otherwise be the _next_ victim. The treatment of non-contagious illnesses and injuries does not provide public goods in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/90 "2009-03-01T04:43:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You have no children now, but you were once a child. I assume that you received schooling at that time. > > (I do disagree with the United States’ apparently unique position on the taxation of non-resident citizens, but that’s another subject) > The police, fire services, court system, military and vaccinations all provide public goods. Catching and punishing a criminal doesn’t just benefit the victim, it benefits the entire community. Similarly, combatting fire, armies and contagious diseases protects everyone who might otherwise be the _next_ victim. The treatment of non-contagious illnesses and injuries does not provide public goods in this way. Sure it does. Productivity of a nation is obviously dependent upon healthy citizens. Also don’t you think that less bankruptcies due to medical expenses would be beneficial? What about crime rates due to unaffordable medical expenses? What about general peace of mind and the fact that you don’t need to constantly worry if you get a certain illness that’s not covered by your own specific insurance policy? What about growing older and realizing you’re not so insurable anymore? All of these contribute to the good of the public. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/91 "2009-03-01T05:06:41Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > How does this – public health care – differ from basic education, where everyone in society contributes tax dollars to providing basic education for the children, regardless of whether or not you have children of your own? Isn’t this best for society as a whole? Have you noticed that the public schools are pretty much crap compared to private schools, or compared to what public schools were a few decades ago? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/92 "2009-03-01T05:16:54Z")
> [@bare](#): > > Whenever I see people comparing the costs of Universal Health Care to our system here in the States, I seldom hear them mention that approximately 50% of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. Those folks didn’t spend their money on anything else? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/93 "2009-03-01T05:27:51Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > The false idea that the government will monitoring doctors and guide treatment was completely fabricated by a lobbyist for a bio-tech firm. These are tactics designed to scare people, and I am sure the falsehoods and scare tactics will only get worse. I don’t know whether or not the government would be monitoring doctors and guiding treatment under a UHC, but they already do WRT to Medicaid and Medicare, which are the two government sponsored/administered health care programs we already have. The insurance companies also do this - basically, any organization that is responsible for paying out large amounts of money for health care is going to be involved in what care their insureds are getting. So, it comes down to two things, at least for me: I don’t want to be paying out even more taxes to cover those people who would rather use their money for things other than health insurance (those who now make too much money to qualify for Medicaid but don’t have any other insurance), and I don’t trust our goverment to do a better job than a private company. I think a better idea than a UHC would be a government administered plan to cover those who are currently uninsured, but only them and they pay their own premiums. It could be an extention of Medicaid - you make too much to qualify for Medicaid? OK, here is this HMO we have and here are the premiums. No denials for pre-existing conditions, but it might end up costing you more. If nothing else, it would probably be a major eye-opener for those that think it wouldn’t end up costing us more to cover all these folks. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/94 "2009-03-01T05:33:30Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You have no children now, but you were once a child. I assume that you received schooling at that time. You know, I really hate this arguement. Yes, I was once a child, but I have paid back the taxes **my parents paid** in spades by being a productive member of society for the past 35+ years. And back then, the schooling was worth the taxes paid - I only graduated high school yet I write better, have a better grasp of math, know more history, etc than many people who are currently finishing their second year of college. Which is probably why things like warehouse jobs are asking for four years of college - it’s the only way they can assume the applicants have a half way decent education. Given that, why am I expected to pay taxes to school your children? And to get back to the OP, why is it that I am expected to pay more taxes to give health insurance to people who choose to do other things with their money than buy their own insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/95 "2009-03-01T05:50:14Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Have you noticed that the public schools are pretty much crap compared to private schools, or compared to what public schools were a few decades ago? No. ETA: Well, OK private schools are better, but I don’t see any noticeable decline in the public system. In fact my kids seem to be doing WAY more work than I ever did in primary school. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/96 "2009-03-01T05:54:47Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > No. > > ETA: Well, OK private schools are better, but I don’t see any noticeable decline in the public system. In fact my kids seem to be doing WAY more work than I ever did in primary school. You must be young. Or lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/97 "2009-03-01T05:56:29Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You know, I really hate this arguement. Yes, I was once a child, but I have paid back the taxes **my parents paid** in spades by being a productive member of society for the past 35+ years. And back then, the schooling was worth the taxes paid - I only graduated high school yet I write better, have a better grasp of math, know more history, etc than many people who are currently finishing their second year of college. Which is probably why things like warehouse jobs are asking for four years of college - it’s the only way they can assume the applicants have a half way decent education. > > Given that, why am I expected to pay taxes to school your children? And to get back to the OP, why is it that I am expected to pay more taxes to give health insurance to people who choose to do other things with their money than buy their own insurance? My assumption, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that not all people can find affordable insurance. Also isn’t it true that although you may think you’re covered you may end up with a condition and realize you are not, in fact, covered. And isn’t it true that coverage can be cancelled unilaterally because you – the insured – are deemed a high risk? Boy that sounds like a great deal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/98 "2009-03-01T05:57:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > You must be young. Or lucky. 1. No. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/99 "2009-03-01T06:34:42Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > My assumption, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that not all people can find affordable insurance. That is probably the crux of the whole situation - why can’t they find affordable insurance? Were they not covered by their parents? When they went out on their own, why didn’t they get insurance then? What choices did they make that means they are now 20,30,40 years old and without insurance? I personally have not been without insurance since 1982 and I have been _poor_ at times, so I don’t get why there are so many people out there who make too much to quailify for Medicaid but cannot afford/get other insurance. > [@](#): > > Also isn’t it true that although you may think you’re covered you may end up with a condition and realize you are not, in fact, covered. And isn’t it true that coverage can be cancelled unilaterally because you – the insured – are deemed a high risk? Boy that sounds like a great deal to me. I don’t have any experience with private policies but group insurance cannot do that. The thing is, insurance and to some extent, health care are not rights. Just as Octomom doesn’t have the right to have 14 children on my dime, neither does anyone have the right to extensive long term medical care on anyone else’s dime. The expense of medical care has gotten to the point that society as a whole cannot afford to pay to cover everyone who has cancer or any other expensive to treat disease. People are upset that there are folks who go bankrupt due to medical expenses, but don’t realize that the UHC they seem to want would just end up bankrupting us all if that UHC is supposed to be covering any and all medical expenses no matter what they are, or what the cost is. Even in a country as big as the US, funds are finite. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175/100 "2009-03-01T06:37:35Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > 1. No. You don’t think you are lucky as to the quality of the schools your children are going to? Or, since you compared what they are doing to what you did, maybe it is that you were unlucky enough to go to a sub par public school yourself. I don’t know - all I know is what I see in the current and back 20 or so years crop of high school graduates. They are appalling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-universal-healthcare-be-more-expensive-or-less-than-the-current-us-system/487175.md?page=6)