# Would victory be the worse thing ever for North Korea's leadership **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357 "2012-01-04T07:17:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/21 "2012-01-05T00:41:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > FWIW I read in a book (can’t remember the name, this was back in college) that back when Kim Il Sung was in charge he would pay off debts to the USSR by sending in thousands of North Koreans to work as slaves doing things like mining and logging in soviet territory. Once the slaves saw how much better life was in the USSR they started committing crimes in the hopes of being sent to soviet prisons since being in a soviet prison was preferable to living in North Korea. The program was ended because it got embarrassing for NK to keep having that happen. I don’t know about that, but this documentary about NK laborers in Siberia is recent: [http://www.vice.com/vice-news/north-korean-labor-camps-part-1](http://www.vice.com/vice-news/north-korean-labor-camps-part-1) ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/22 "2012-01-06T07:38:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > FWIW I read in a book (can’t remember the name, this was back in college) that back when Kim Il Sung was in charge he would pay off debts to the USSR by sending in thousands of North Koreans to work as slaves doing things like mining and logging in soviet territory. Once the slaves saw how much better life was in the USSR they started committing crimes in the hopes of being sent to soviet prisons since being in a soviet prison was preferable to living in North Korea. The program was ended because it got embarrassing for NK to keep having that happen. > > I’ve also heard stories that NK refugees are impressed by the standard of living and level of technology they see in the poor, rural parts of China (so the worst parts of the worst parts of a developing nation are impressive to them). > > All in all, yeah, the system would collapse IMO. Supposedly North Koreans are a lot more aware now than they were 10-15 years ago about how much better the standards of living are overseas because of massive underground VHS, DVD and cell phone smuggling operations in the country. Supposedly lots of South Korean soap opera VHS tapes get smuggled in, and people see the standard of living in South Korea that way. All in all an interesting post. I think the DVD/VHSs wouldn’t persuade many people as they are too easily to dismiss as propaganda ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/23 "2012-01-06T16:10:33Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I think the DVD/VHSs wouldn’t persuade many people as they are too easily to dismiss as propaganda On the contrary, it’s kind of hard to smuggle them in **yourself** from **China** and still think it’s South Korean propaganda. From what I’ve read, the North Koreans actually do know intellectually that their government is full of BS. But it’s quite a different thing to know it emotionally. And still a further thing to be able to do anything about it. Many North Korean refugees knew South Koreans were better off before they got to Seoul. But that still didn’t stop them from being absolutely shocked when they witness the difference firsthand, much less the difference in living conditions just across the Chinese border. ---
**Author:** ![simple\_homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/24 "2012-01-06T18:01:45Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > FWIW I read in a book (can’t remember the name, this was back in college) that back when Kim Il Sung was in charge he would pay off debts to the USSR by sending in thousands of North Koreans to work as slaves doing things like mining and logging in soviet territory. Once the slaves saw how much better life was in the USSR they started committing crimes in the hopes of being sent to soviet prisons since being in a soviet prison was preferable to living in North Korea. The program was ended because it got embarrassing for NK to keep having that happen. > . Apparently there are still slaves from North Korea today, according to this website and online video where they visit the slaves in the labor camps in Siberia: [http://www.vice.com/vice-news/north-korean-labor-camps-part-1](http://www.vice.com/vice-news/north-korean-labor-camps-part-1) ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/25 "2012-01-08T22:03:03Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > On the contrary, it’s kind of hard to smuggle them in **yourself** from **China** and still think it’s South Korean propaganda. > > From what I’ve read, the North Koreans actually do know intellectually that their government is full of BS. But it’s quite a different thing to know it emotionally. And still a further thing to be able to do anything about it. > > Many North Korean refugees knew South Koreans were better off before they got to Seoul. But that still didn’t stop them from being absolutely shocked when they witness the difference firsthand, much less the difference in living conditions just across the Chinese border. I’m pretty sure most NKorean DVD watchers obtain their DVDs in North Korea, they don’t embark on a death-defying border crossing each time they want to watch something. Yes, when people are starving, it’s hard to believe your country is the best in the world ---
**Author:** ![QuarkChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c5a1d2/32.png) [@QuarkChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuarkChild)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/26 "2012-01-08T22:17:22Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > The utter shock at seeing all that food laid out waiting for anyone who wants to buy it. People who had never seen an orange up close standing next to three stacks of different varieties and wondering how it’s possible that no proof of rank or loyalty is required to buy it. I once saw a lady just crying as she looked at the egg display. It’s just a guess of course, but I’m pretty sure that’s what was going on with her . The milk aisle is what did my friend from Croatia in. She couldn’t believe that there were so many different kinds. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/27 "2012-01-09T05:13:16Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I’m pretty sure most NKorean DVD watchers obtain their DVDs in North Korea, they don’t embark on a death-defying border crossing each time they want to watch something. Most, but not all. They know the ultimate source of their stuff is China. Still, it’s one thing to understand something intellectually and another to feel the full psychological impact. The North Korean refugees that enter South Korea from China know intellectually about how much better things are in South Korea (and just across the border in China, actually). It still doesn’t stop them from being absolutely flabberfasted when they get there. At that point, they know it’s not just propaganda, but that doesn’t mean it really ‘hits’ them. ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/28 "2012-01-09T06:06:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > What is funny is how fat Kim Jong Un is. I also remember reading a passage in a book on the subject where a group of South Koreans were touring North Korea and one of the South Koreans asked what she thought was an innocent question but that got her detained by NK police for a few days. She asked ‘why is Kim Jong Il the only fat person in North Korea?’ Things like that, or the morbidly obese Kim Jong Un presiding over a nation in famine aren’t going to be lost on people when they start to contemplate how much better the leadership lives than the common citizens. I noticed that immediately, when the first pictures of him emerged, even before the death of Kim Jong Il, when Un was brought out as the presumptive heir. By North American standards, he’s barely fat, but compared to everyone else in North Korea? He looks grotesquely well-fed. If I were a starving North Korean, I’d be seething with rage. If I had the energy. Which I probably wouldn’t. Due to being chronically starving, you know. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/29 "2012-01-09T15:27:21Z")
> [@Savannah](#): > > I noticed that immediately, when the first pictures of him emerged, even before the death of Kim Jong Il, when Un was brought out as the presumptive heir. By North American standards, he’s barely fat, but compared to everyone else in North Korea? He looks grotesquely well-fed. If I were a starving North Korean, I’d be seething with rage. If I had the energy. Which I probably wouldn’t. Due to being chronically starving, you know. Almost the only people who see the propaganda are right around Pyongyang, and behold to the regime. Doesn’t mean they _like_ it, but they manage not to starve. And the price of that is pretending they like it. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357/30 "2012-01-09T15:45:58Z")
One of the things to realize, is that when people have been brutalized for generations, they become inured to it. It is the way that we (Humanity) handles such things. NK will exist until its population decides otherwise. SK can’t invade. Chine won’t. US? Why? This is one of the weirdest example of human perversity at a national level that we will ever (hopefully) see. A cult of personality beyond even that of Living Colour! OK, that was cheap. But hopefully funny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-victory-be-the-worse-thing-ever-for-north-koreas-leadership/608357.md?page=1)