# Would We Find Medieval Dining Habits Gross? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574 "2010-02-26T21:54:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/1 "2010-02-26T21:54:12Z")
I always wondered how I would react, if I were transported to a banquest, ca. 1300 AD or so. I know that people ate mostly with their fingers (forks were not yet common), and people would wipe their greasy hands on the backs of the dogs (who roamed the banquet halls). There was also a loy of communal sharing (a bowl of milk would be passed around). How about meat? Would it be sent to the table sliced? Or did you hack your own hunk off the joint? How about vegetables- would you be served mashed beets/turnips/etc., or would there be whole ones on the platter? And beverages-I know there were wine stewards who would refill your cup-what about cyder or water (bleeech)? Are there any places in the USA, where you can experience a real medieval banquet? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/2 "2010-02-26T22:01:28Z")
[Look up](http://www.sca.org/geography/findsca.html) your local kingdom. No water except to maybe wash with. Too dangerous to drink. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/3 "2010-02-26T22:18:56Z")
Having lived in an all-male dorm, I think I’d be able to cope. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/4 "2010-02-26T22:24:16Z")
There were certainly _table manners_ in the Middle Ages - just different ones from the sort you grew up with. I doubt it would be too disgusting - it’s not all “crazed drunken debauchery”, more like “going to a country where they eat with their hands”. In fact, when forks came in from the south, a lot of people from northern Europe were all, “So… what have you been doing with your hands that they’re too gross to touch the food with, dude?” ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/5 "2010-02-26T22:27:50Z")
People in the Middle Ages were more fastidious than we give them credit. Just because you ate with your fingers doesn’t mean you’re a slob; you can be perfectly dainty about it. Napkins were used, as well as tablecloths in the upper classes. Another huge misconception is that people ate rotten food and overspiced it to cover it up. Please - spices were too expensive to do that, and anyone who thinks that someone of that era wouldn’t notice that their meat has gone rotten is crazy. And yes, try the link **silenus** posted. There are some very good feasts put out by the SCA, if I do say so myself. If you’d like to see a menu for some of the ones I’ve prepared, I’ll be happy to post some. _Known in the Society as THL Maud Aleyns, APF, CW, CE (Middle Kingdom)_ ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/6 "2010-02-26T22:32:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I always wondered how I would react, if I were transported to a banquest, ca. 1300 AD or so. > I know that people ate mostly with their fingers (forks were not yet common), Forks weren’t common, but knives and spoons were. > [@](#): > > and people would wipe their greasy hands on the backs of the dogs (who roamed the banquet halls). I’m sure that happened, but generally pitchers and napkins were sent around after each course. The servant who job it was to do that was called a ewerer. > [@](#): > > There was also a loy of communal sharing (a bowl of milk would be passed around). There was a lot of communal sharing. > [@](#): > > How about meat? Would it be sent to the table sliced? Or did you hack your own hunk off the joint? Generally, the meat would be carved at table. But it wasn’t a matter of “hack your own hunk off the joint.” Think more the stereotypical thanksgiving dinner, where the turkey is brought out and admired, and then the person at the head of the table carves it and serves everyone. > [@](#): > > How about vegetables- would you be served mashed beets/turnips/etc., or would there be whole ones on the platter? Vegetables were served mashed, boiled, stewed, raw, pickled, etc. The ways we prepare vegetables are the same ways they prepared vegetables. I know the French ate more green vegetables than the English, who ate more herbs. > [@](#): > > And beverages-I know there were wine stewards who would refill your cup-what about cyder or water (bleeech)? Cider yes. Water, not so much. People didn’t really drink water at meals if they could help it, largely for potability issues. There’s the old German saying, “Water rusts the stomach”. > [@](#): > > Are there any places in the USA, where you can experience a real medieval banquet? Don’t have an answer for that one. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/7 "2010-02-26T23:16:54Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > People in the Middle Ages were more fastidious than we give them credit. Just because you ate with your fingers doesn’t mean you’re a slob; you can be perfectly dainty about it. Napkins were used, as well as tablecloths in the upper classes. > > Another huge misconception is that people ate rotten food and overspiced it to cover it up. Please - spices were too expensive to do that, and anyone who thinks that someone of that era wouldn’t notice that their meat has gone rotten is crazy. > > And yes, try the link **silenus** posted. There are some very good feasts put out by the SCA, if I do say so myself. If you’d like to see a menu for some of the ones I’ve prepared, I’ll be happy to post some. > > _Known in the Society as THL Maud Aleyns, APF, CW, CE (Middle Kingdom)_ Ha, Philippa the Farrier is our roommate, and Stefan li Rous is an eternal Pennsic campmate =) and I have hosted Andrew MacRobb =) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/8 "2010-02-27T15:41:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I know that people ate mostly with their fingers (forks were not yet common), Nope. Mostly, they ate with spoons. But they did use fingers, picks, knives , and forks in Southern Europe from at least the 10th Century. They weren’t used in Northern Europe until later because they were considered an affectation. A lot of food was in smaller pieces, anyway, like [meatballs](http://recipes.medievalcookery.com/pumpes.html) or stews, or else easy to eat with the hands, like many, many kinds of meat pie. > [@](#): > > and people would wipe their greasy hands on the backs of the dogs (who roamed the banquet halls). Not generally, no. Mostly they’d wipe their hands on napkins, and use water bowls. > [@](#): > > There was also a loy of communal sharing (a bowl of milk would be passed around). Yes, and no (I don’t know about this “bowl of milk” story, though. But sharing did happen, usually in the sense of 2 or 3 people to a serving bowl. > [@](#): > > How about meat? Would it be sent to the table sliced? Or did you hack your own hunk off the joint? Usually already sliced. In fact, this was one of the jobs of the King’s favourites in royal courts, but just kitchen knaves in other places. But it depends - small birds like songbirds or squab were likely served whole. This is not so different from how I plate things today, BTW. > [@](#): > > How about vegetables- would you be served mashed beets/turnips/etc., or would there be whole ones on the platter? Everything from mashed, boiled, fried, sliced, diced & roasted, salads, stews…Generally, something rooty would be done either mashed, [boiled](http://recipes.medievalcookery.com/pottage.html), fried as chips (parsnip chips are om-nom-nom!) or in a complete side dish like [armoured turnips](http://www.medievalcookery.com/recipes/turnips.html) (sliced turnips layered with cheese & spices - think potatoes _au gratin_). _I’ve_ never just done a whole boiled turnip or beet in all my years of medieval cooking, and I can’t _offhand_ recall a recipe for it either. > [@](#): > > And beverages-I know there were wine stewards who would refill your cup-what about cyder or water (bleeech)? People didn’t generally drink water at table, more for humoural theories than any other reason. But often you’d share a pitcher with a couple of people. > [@](#): > > Are there any places in the USA, where you can experience a real medieval banquet? The SCA? Do NOT go to [Medieval Times](http://medievalcookery.blogspot.com/2007/12/its-really-not-that-hard.html)or a RennFaire if you want to experience anything mildly authentic. Note - this of course pertains to feasting, middle class and up. Peasants generally made do with pottages, gruels & bread, and I’m sure even the king would eat a drumstick with his hands if he was just getting a midnight snack (although - witness Count Gaston Phoebus’ idea of a [quick snack](http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/200910/19/73/e0194773_13471263.jpg) while hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Sehmket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Sehmket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sehmket)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/9 "2010-02-28T00:24:14Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > And yes, try the link **silenus** posted. There are some very good feasts put out by the SCA, if I do say so myself. If you’d like to see a menu for some of the ones I’ve prepared, I’ll be happy to post some. > > _Known in the Society as THL Maud Aleyns, APF, CW, CE (Middle Kingdom)_ Indyellen, I’d love to see some of your menus and/or recipies! ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/10 "2010-02-28T00:40:50Z")
On the whole, manners were very important, and (depending on their station in life) children were carefully trained in proper manners–much more so than today. They weren’t the manners we’re used to, but it was entirely possible to be dainty, clean, and elegant at a medieval feast. Both men and women did so. ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/11 "2010-02-28T18:10:08Z")
SCA feasts at least the ones I have been to are an attempt for a Medieval feel, hardly an authentic Medieval feast. While some have food painstakingly researched they are usually prepared in a modern kitchen with modern food stuffs and for a modern audience and often served on modern serving dishes. An audience dressed in costumes ranging over 1000 years in the middle ages not to mention the folks who are wearing modern clothing and everything from handwrought cutlery to paperplates and plastic spoons. So not the authentic Medieval feast requested by the OP. However, they are probably the closest you will find you can actually participate in. The food is usually quite good; plentiful and tasty. The company interesting, and the effort to believe goes a long way to result in amazing experience. THL Alexandra Stremouchova; Glen Abbhain ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/12 "2010-02-28T20:11:14Z")
There’s been a recent movement in the SCA towards greater authenticity in table manners, and table service, but we’ve still got quite a ways to go. One of the main problems is a modern people can’t unlearn germ theory when they sit down for a “medieval” dinner. In most of the carver’s and servant’s manuals from the early modern period (1450-1600), to make something clean, you wiped it off. No visible dirt= clean. But for a modern person that’s really not good enough, we except things to be washed with hot water and soap before it’s clean again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/13 "2010-02-28T20:27:24Z")
> [@adhemar](#): > > SCA feasts at least the ones I have been to are an attempt for a Medieval feel, hardly an authentic Medieval feast. I always try and cook not just authentic medieval food with as period ingredients as humanly possible, but food authentic for one narrow range of time and place, possibly only from one cookbook or a few select ones if there’s a larger selection e.g. when doing Chaucerian England. > [@](#): > > While some have food painstakingly researched they are usually prepared in a modern kitchen with modern food stuffs and for a modern audience and often served on modern serving dishes. Err, not in MY kitchen or feast hall. Yes, modern kitchen, usually (We’ve done enough over fire too), but that doesn’t affect the food. We serve on earthenware, tin plate and the like. > [@](#): > > An audience dressed in costumes ranging over 1000 years in the middle ages not to mention the folks who are wearing modern clothing and everything from handwrought cutlery to paperplates and plastic spoons. Yes, a range of times (although we’ve had fixed time-period feasts too), but \*modern \*clothes and \*plastic \*utensils are not allowed at all. One is against the \*only \*overarching rule for attending an SCA event, and the other is a Kingdom no-no by law. I shudder to think what an overseas feast might be like, then. Maybe Adamastor’s lucky to be the most isolated shire in the world, after all. ---
**Author:** ![adhemar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@adhemar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhemar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/14 "2010-02-28T22:47:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I always try and cook not just authentic medieval food with as period ingredients as humanly possible, but food authentic for one narrow range of time and place, possibly only from one cookbook or a few select ones if there’s a larger selection e.g. when doing Chaucerian England.Err, not in MY kitchen or feast hall. Yes, modern kitchen, usually (We’ve done enough over fire too), but that doesn’t affect the food. We serve on earthenware, tin plate and the like. Yes, a range of times (although we’ve had fixed time-period feasts too), but \*modern \*clothes and \*plastic \*utensils are not allowed at all. One is against the \*only \*overarching rule for attending an SCA event, and the other is a Kingdom no-no by law. I shudder to think what an overseas feast might be like, then. Maybe Adamastor’s lucky to be the most isolated shire in the world, after all. I was not trying to insult you or any of the awesome cooks in the SCA, just pointing out that the OP would not be able to go to an SCA event and participate in a truly Medival feast without a lot of suspension of disbelief. I applaud you on your adherance to reenacting a Medieval feast, I think that would be very incredible to attend one of your feasts. It would be interesting to discuss with you at another time and place as to whether our consumables are the same or close enough to Medieval consumables to be considered the same (I fall on the side of close enough). re the overarching rule of attending an SCA event : Per the Corpora of the SCA “B. Requirements for Participants at Society events Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at pre-17th century clothing, conforms to the provisions in Corpora, and complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or waivers) which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal classes, the requirement to wear pre-17th century dress may be waived. All participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen.” What constitutes a resonable attempt varies greatly, a t=tunic thrown over bluejeans tennis shoes and modern headgear to some is a reasonable attempt. Actaully the worst attempt I have personaly witnessed was a coin belt over camo cargo pants with a sports bra for a top and Doc Martins for footwear. I have also seen clothing where the owner grew thier own silkworms, reeled and wove the silk then handsewed an underdress. That attention to detail for a garment essentillay not seen blew me away. the rest ofr the outfit was as incredible. The SCA is a wonderful magical place filled with people who for the most are attempting to fulfill an ideal. When it works it is a really incredible time. That is what keeps me coming back for more. THL Alexandra Stremouchova (who is anxiously awaiting Gulfwars and not ready all at the same time) ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/15 "2010-03-01T13:43:57Z")
> [@Sehmket](#): > > Indyellen, I’d love to see some of your menus and/or recipies! Here’s a menu for a feast I did 3-4 years ago: **FIRST COURSE** • Sallat for fish days (Carrot & Shrimp Salad) • Hard boiled eggs • Genovese (Spinach) Tart • Bread \*\* SECOND COURSE\*\* • Roast Chicken with three sauces o Lombard Mustard o Sauce of Apples o Green Garlic Sauce • Roasted Roots (Parsnips & Onions) • Rys (Rice in Almond Milk) **THIRD COURSE** • Stewed (Braised) Beef • Buttered Wortes (Greens) • Barley I also did baked pears with almonds & spices for a desert in the last course. This was for a winter feast. ---
**Author:** ![J-P\_L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/j-p_l/32/3156_2.png) [@J-P\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J-P_L)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/16 "2010-03-01T16:48:56Z")
We did the [Medieval Times](http://www.medievaltimes.com/index.php) in Toronto a number of years ago. From their website [FAQ](http://www.medievaltimes.com/faq.php) > [@](#): > > Where are Medieval Times’ Castles located? > > We currently have nine Castles: Kissimmee, Fla, Buena Park, Calif., Schaumburg, Ill., Hanover, Md., Lyndhurst, N.J., Myrtle Beach, S.C., Dallas, Texas, Atlanta, Ga., and Toronto, Canada. > Is it true that we must eat with our hands? > Absolutely! Eating utensils were not used in the 11th century and we take you back! The King’s feast includes garlic bread, tomato bisque soup, roasted chicken, spare rib, herb-basted potato, pastry of the Castle and beverages (may vary by castle). ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/17 "2010-03-01T17:35:29Z")
If eating utensils are forbidden on historical grounds, why on earth are New World vegetables like tomatoes and potatoes allowed? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/18 "2010-03-01T17:44:08Z")
Well, the first and most obvious problem with the “Medieval Times feast” is that both tomatoes and potatoes are new world foods, and wouldn’t have been part of an actual 11th century meal. (In theory, in the middle ages, you could have had garlic bread, because they had all the ingredients, but the first bruschetta recipes only date from the 15th century). Also, of course, the middle ages had eating utensils, just not forks, which I hope is also true of the Medieval Times meals, because it’s going to be awfully messy to eat that tomato bisque soup with your hands. ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/19 "2010-03-01T20:40:05Z")
I was going to say that about the Medieval Times meal too. You pick up the bowl of soup and drink it. It is called Dragon’s Blood soup. From what I recall on eating meat, it was picked up in one hand, then you got your teeth around a piece, then used your knife to slice (upward) the piece off. As opposed to simply ripping at it with your teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574/20 "2010-03-01T21:39:22Z")
If you’re looking at foods eaten during the middle ages, and the similarities and differences between medieval and modern food, check out Terence Scully’s “The Art of Cooking in the Middle Ages”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-we-find-medieval-dining-habits-gross/530574.md?page=2)