Would you accept an inheritance under these sexist conditions?

Sorry, I misread the student loan term. My mistake entirely. That being said, I’d still take a run at the ‘no-loan other than student loans’ as being void for policy because personal loans from family members and bank loans to students that are not student loans (e.g. student line of credit v. student loan) are often necessarily where I live to get through school, particularly for MBAs and professional degrees that are expensive but often lead to big bucks once the person graduates and gets a job.

As far as big brother intervening in the disposition of private property goes, if it came down to a black and white yes or no, I’d have to say yes, the law should (and does) permit this. (BTW, in my previous post, I was just looking for a way to get my hands on the cash – trying to use the law to my own greedy ends, rather than trying to use the law as a social tool).

The following only deals with trusts in Ontario – the law differs depending on where you live.

When it comes to wills, society has an interest in ensuring that a testator’s bequests do not act against society, so there are limits put on what a testator can do. Where I am, a testator must have the mental capacity to make a will, which includes understanding his or her moral obligations. When a testator does not deal with his moral obligations in his will, then often there will be trouble, so if a person is not capable of understanding his or her moral obligations, then the person is not permitted to make a will.

Take for example a horny fellow who is tired of his wife and does not like his children. He’s rich, she’s a full time homemaker, and the kids are toddlers. He makes a will leaving everything to his new boopsie, and shortly thereafter has a massive heart attack while boning her, leaving his wife and kids on welfare at society’s expense. That is an example where the law puts limits on what a person does with his or her own property.

Another example is how law put a limit on just how far a person can control a beneficiary from beyond the grave. It’s a matter of finding a balance between letting a person do what he or she wants with his money, and not letting that person pull the puppet strings once dead. That’s why a possessive fellow is not allowed to make a will that leaves his estate to his wife on the condition that she does not remarry.

On a larger scale, there are also criminal and human rights aspects to trusts, in which society puts limits on wills simply to keep society trucking along. It would not be a good thing for society if a trust were set up to give money to the first person to shoot the prime minister or some other illegal act. It would not be a good thing for society if a trust were set up to will was to give money to specifically harm a gender or minority.

Up here in Ontario, we can make trusts that give to persons, or that give to charitable purposes. To a considerable degree we can make trusts to non-charitable purposes, but the law is evolving in that respect. Non-charitable trusts get interesting. There are a lot of very good causes that do not qualify as charities, for example, local sports talent. I think it that for the most part, non-charitable trusts can be very helpful in making it possible for a person to leave his or her estate to a purpose rather than a person, but I would want the government to have the authority to limit non-charitable purpose trust to purposes that are not contrary to public policy.

Simple mechanics also put restrictions a person can or cannot do with his or her estate after death. Trusts that intend to give something (the subject of the gift) to someone (the object of the gift) have to be clear enough that the trustee carrying out the trust can determine with certainty that yes, the intent is clear, that yes, the subject being given is clear, and the object receiving the gift is clear. When any of these are not certain, then the law steps in and tries to sort things out as well as possible, rather than just letting things sit unfilled.

Finally, the unfettered ability to make trusts needs can make a big mess for society when corporations use trusts to avoid taxes. Have a boo at what happened in Canada when the corporate and finance worlds clued into the advantages of income trusts Income trust - Wikipedia . I think that this sort of problem should be dealt with by adjusting the tax laws, rather than standing in the way of trusts, but whichever way the government approaches the problem, the fact remains that the government limits what is done with private funds (e.g. forces the payment of taxes) so as to ensure that society can function efficiently.

We have all sorts of social customs and formal law that form the bedrock of our society. Without law, we’d all be in the shitter. The question then is to make the law a just as possible, and to keep working on it, for as society changes, law must change, and as law changes, we must keep an eye on how society changes. In short, law is an extremely important tool that society uses to hold itself together and to advance itself. Have a look at where law came from. In general, western ancient law (in particular Roman law) dealt with what we now think of as criminal matters, and what we now think of as civil matters. Within the civil sphere, estate law was tremendously important (as well as related marriage law – think of marriage a something that ensures the line of succession and disposition of property upon death). As European law developed (both on the continent and also in England), estate law was front and centre from the outset, and ended up extensively intertwined with the development of the law of equity. I think that to take society’s oversight out of estate law would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. I’d rather that society keep working on estate law to help it be equitable than society simply throw all limits to the wind and let the chips fall where they may, no matter how morally unfair.

Muffin, I just reread the OP and to my own surprise it does not say that Z. Carter is dead – only that she or he is the grandparent of the person faced with this choice, and that Z established the trust. Now, while I certainly imagined Z as being dead when I wrote it (and I think Z’s counterpart in the Heinlein story is dead), I have to wonder if it changes the (ethical) equation for you if Z is alive.

Let’s suppose that Z is sitll living. She or he is distributing his or her own money, on the terms given in the OP (with or without using a trust). None of the grandchildren did anything to help make this fortune. Why, then, should the state have the power to determine how the fortune is divvied up?

I have two young nieces in their late teens. I like one of them better because she and I have more in common; she loves books and math and science, while the other only likes makeup and reality TV. Is there any reason I should give them the same value Christmas present?

This. I have one brother and I’d split 50:50 with him if he didn’t want to try to qualify. Even if he did try to qualify, I think I would consider putting some aside for him - the rules presumably prevent me from giving it to him now, but I could set it aside in case he decides to give up the challenge, it becomes obvious he won’t make it or he has an emergency that takes precedence.

Male, would probably not take the offer. I’m pretty conservative and cautious by nature. It would feel to me (at that age) like a long shot at best. I realize I may have made different choices if I did accept the challenge, but I’m 50, make a pretty good living, and I’m still not quite there (damn family! :D).

Maybe, though. It’s not like I got tons of family $$$ after I was 18, so it’s not much of a risk, now that I think about it–I paid off my own college loans, for example. Okay, I changed my mind, I’ll do it!

As a man, I plan to meet the qualifications for that inheritance. I might not ever get there, but I still have some time left to try.

Or it could be both at the same time. Without knowing Z. Carter, there’s no way of saying for sure if s/he held negative biases about men, women, or both, and no way of knowing whether the conditions of the will were even based on those biases. Trying to define whether the conditions are more insulting to one gender or the other seems rather futile to me. It’s just an effed up idea all the way around, at least to our modern eyes.

I would take the money and then give enough of it to my brother so that he could fulfill the requirements for himself, and then we’d both be happy.

ETA: Oh, damn, I reread the OP and saw that no financial aid allowed for males. What about material aid? I could figure out a way around that restriction…

I’m female. Yes, it’s sexist (against both men and women). Yes, I’d definitely take the money. I’m not going to turn down free money. I’ll live with the implication that poor little me can’t possibly make my way in the world, and be indignant about it all the way to the bank.

If I was male, I probably wouldn’t get the trust fund. I’ve never been a super-ambitious kind of person–I’m happy with a comfortable middle-class lifestyle, and can’t really be arsed to put in the effort to try to rise above that.

Something close to this actually happened in my family. It was much more blatantly sexist. A large amount of land was bequeathed…only to the male descendants! The boys got huge chunks of acreage, and the girls got nothin’.

Fortunately for abstract justice (and materially to my detriment) a united group of uncles and aunts challenged the sexist terms of the will (about eighty years later) and equal inheritance was decreed by the court…retroactively! Some nice little old ladies suddenly came into a fair amount of wealth.

It “harmed” me by decreasing the amount I would eventually inherit… And I was 100% in favor of that, because justice is nicer to have than wealth.

(Anyway, by the time it got down to my generation, wasn’t a lot left! Dang, my family has had a lot of kids!)

My family had a situation similar to that experienced by Trinopus: Great Grandfather left sizeable amounts to my father and uncle, but nothing to my aunt. He did this even though my aunt was the one who visited him almost every day when he was in a nursing home, ran countless errands for him, and seemed to have the closest relationship to him. His rationale (so I’ve been told, at least) was that “she doesn’t need the money–that’s what a husband is for!” (She was unmarried at the time and he did have issues with that.)

My father, uncle, and grandfather worked it out so that she got a share equal to that of the boys. Not sure exactly what legal steps they took, but they managed it. I’m sure it would have been a mess if one of the boys had fought for the amount great grandfather bequeathed to them, but they didn’t. May not have been what my great grandfather wanted, but he was dead. Too bad.

I’d like to do something similar: take the amount given to me and see if I could portion a share off to my brothers. $700k would go a long way. It’s not like I’m an incredibly selfless person. Rather, my brothers are my family and have been there for me when I needed support. I’m not giving up those relationships because of a will made by a sexist old coot!

Quickest decision I’d ever make. Send me the money!

I briefly worked in the trusts department for a bank (Google: Crummey Trusts for some enlightening info on how rich people stay rich).

People would put in all kinds of strange stipulations.
Then again, they know their kids/grandkids/brothers/sisters better than anyone else.

One gave each kid a huge lump sum (multi-millions), except the problem child who had his given to him in smaller amounts, monthly, knowing that if he got it in one lump sum, he would blow it all in short order.

Another trust gave millions to the two kids, but ONLY if they got a Doctorate’s degree from an accredited university in the USA. Otherwise, they got zip.

One very rich person realized they didn’t have enough money in their estate to buy back the company, so they started investing heavily in multiple insurance trusts, all made out to the sole heir, and stipulated it was to be used soley to buy back the family business.

When you are rich, you think about these things.

The big difference between gifts made by the living and gifts made by the dead is that a state’s first responsibility (as in responsible government in which the government is responsible to the electorate) is to its citizens, not to those passed on, no more, expired, gone to meet their maker, stiff, bereft of life, resting in peace, pushing up daisies, kicked the bucket, shuffled off their mortal coil, run down the curtain and having joined the bleeding choir invisible ex-parrots. From a very practical position, society’s needs take precedence over dead people’s needs because dead people have not needs, being dead and all that.

The degree to which society respects the wishes of people who are no longer alive is created entirely by society. The dead do not have any intrinsic rights. It is society that decides who gets what from the deceased. It is society that decides to what degree the deceased’s wishes will or will not be respected. In some societies, such as ours in Canada and the USA, the deceased’s wishes are respected more than in other societies in which the deceased’s wishes are not respected to the same degree. For example, in Italy, there is necessary succession by which some members of the family gain the right to receive a fixed portion of the property of the deceased, even against the will, and in Denmark if you are not a resident you need permission from the government to take up your inheritance of land. Each country has its own laws about inheritances, some of which make sense to us in Canada and the USA, and some of which make no sense at all, simply because of cultural difference between the various societies. For right or wrong, what it comes down to is that society , not the dead, decides who gets what, and any respect afforded by society to the dead’s wishes is something that arises out of society determining that such respect is best for society, as opposed to being something that is good for the dead.

Now let’s have a look at the living and the gifts they make while they are alive. Similar to the dead, the living’s right to property is entirely a social construct. In some societies land is treated as a communal resource rather than something that is privately owned, and sometimes personal property has communal aspects (e.g. traditional Inuit cultures in which land was communal and rights to personal property sometimes ceased upon the object no longer being used or needed by the possessor). In some societies (including some states in the USA), property rights are determined by marital status (i.e. community property, in which there is a presumption of joint ownership of assets acquired by one spouse or the other during the marriage). There are those who believe that the government should have no say what so ever over of property (no taxes, no restriction on use, and no restriction of transfer of ownership), and there are those who believe that the government should control all property to the exclusion of individuals having property rights. What it comes down to is that societies decide how property is held, through the gradual establishment of customs, which in complex societies end up formalized into property law by judicial custom and by statute.

Our societies tend to be more flexible in what the living are permitted to give as compared to what the dead are permitted to give. Why? The living are living, so in a fair and just society, one would want them to have as much control over their own lives as is reasonable in the eyes of that society. The dead? They’re dead. Also, the living are a lot more difficult to deal with than the dead when it comes to public policy and law. When was the last time zombies picketed their local politician? Let’s face it, zombies usually don’t vote.

That being said, there is still a great deal of restriction placed on the ownership and transfer of property by the law, whether a gift is made while living or upon death. When I look about at the laws here in Ontario, I find a lot of similarity between the laws that affect the living and the laws that affect the not-so-living. Child and spousal support paid while alive is continued as dependent’s relief after death. Net family property equalization upon separation while alive is preserved against the estate after the spouse’s death if the survivor does not like what is left in the will. Capital gains taxes are triggered for intergenerational transfers be they made before or after death. Charitable gifts are encouraged through tax deductions whether made before or after death.

Are the laws pertaining to gifts looser for the living than the dead? Yes, but not that different. The biggest difference is that the living are expected to make fair decisions, but if their decisions are not fair, a lot of leeway is given by the state, whereas once a person is dead, if their decisions concerning their estate are not fair, then the state will not give as much leeway. I don’t have a problem with that, for I am more concerned with having a functioning, fair and just society rather than having a society of arbitrary absolutes in which the dead have control over the living. That, and I intend to die broke anyway!

Well, in my jurisdiction I’m going straight to the High Court to have the trust terms modified, as they’re obviously illegal. The South African constitution has an anti-discrimination clause which explicitly applies to private parties (though I hear that the extent to which it affects freedom of testation is not entirely clear). Skald asked whether governments should be able to interfere in the private disposition of property, but in my jurisdiction the government certainly can, and when millions are at stake I’m not going to worry about a philosophical dispute. :stuck_out_tongue:

Eh, I’d take it.

First thought: Sell a 5% to 10% share in my trust to whomever pays me the yearly amount.

Win!

The thing is, these terms assume that women CAN’T make that amount of money. Maybe they can, maybe they can’t. In those days, it was harder for women to make that money, and I think it’s STILL harder for women to put together a pile of money. Now, part of this is because women have to choose between being a mommy and having a career fairly early in life. Yes, some women manage to do it all. And most mothers have to work outside the home, but they usually have to sacrifice career opportunities to do this.

And yes, it is sexist. I’d also say that it’s rather shortsighted, if the ancestor wants to make sure that his/her descendants are successful in life. I think that the money would be better spent if every descendant, regardless of sex, got a fixed amount of money for college or trade education.

Heinlein had some rather odd ideas about sex and gender roles, and he had a hard time even conceiving of a woman who DIDN’T want to have lots of kids. And having an inheritance like this would make it much, much easier for a female descendant to have kids early and often, and be able to support them.

I’m not sure if I could take the money, when I was 18. I was very idealistic at that age. Nowadays, I could take the money and help my brother out, if I wanted to.

OK. Sorry, that’s about what I assumed, but I’ve never read the book, so I was going on the terms in the post.

ROFL :slight_smile:

OK, I don’t think this is obvious, but I think it’s true. We have two questions:

(1) Was the trust set up asymmetrically because the founder assumed women were less worthy or less likely of commercial success?
(2) If so, is there a disadvantage to women in doing so?

#1 is not the only possible assumption. It’s also possible that a grandmother made those terms for the same reason. Or it’s possible a grandparent thought that women were more likely to do something worthwhile, and should have the money to do so, while men needed a kick up the rear. Or genuinely intended to give women a leg up to counteract the other sexism they were likley to encounter, but expressed that sort of tactlessly.

Those are all possible. But the obvious assumption is most likely to be correct because most reasoning of that sort IS for that reason, especially in a Heinlein book! People are being somewhat incorrect in saying “this IS sexist” rather than “assuming the overwhelmingly most likely interpretation, this is sexist” but that’s how people’s brains work. After all, in real life, presumably we would KNOW what gender our grandparent was, and have a pretty good idea what they intended. So the mystery seems artificial and most people forget to mention it, but I assume they WOULD reevaluate if they discover their assumption is wrong.

Then, does it disadvantage women? It does disadvantage men in the obvious way, by not giving them money. But yes, I think it DOES disadvantage women. It’s like not being able to serve in the army. In terms of physical comfort, not being able to serve in the army is probably a plus. But in terms of getting respect from yourself and from society, it’s a big minus. Being coddled, while convenient physically, is bad because most people need to achieve things, and because it makes you entirely dependant on someone else, and that’s often a losing bet, because if it ever goes wrong, you’ve lost the opportunity to make your own way in the world. (If the trust gives a guaranteed income, then that problem is much less likely, but it still probably carries a message of helplessness to everyone else, and you’re still screwed if you accept the message that you should just be a kept woman and then the trust goes bust somehow. Most people taking the money but not the message are doing ok, but I think there’s still a problem with the set up.)

PS. One more logistical quibble. I don’t think this matters for the spirit of the question, I think most people are able to answer that. But in theory, would starting a business with investors be allowed, or would it count as a “loan”? On the one hand, starting a business with investors is a very traditional way to become successful. On the other hand, if it were allowed it would be possible to fiddle if you wanted to cheat the terms.

It’s a sexist proposition inasmuch as it pigeon-holes male and female descendants into their respective, traditional gender roles.

But, certainly it is the women who benefit from the sexism in this circumstance.

I’m a man, and I’d go for it. Amassing a million dollars over, say, 20 years, isn’t an unreasonable goal, and then I’d be set for life!