# Would you accept immortality? If not, why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 21, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010 "2010-08-21T23:18:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/41 "2010-08-23T15:53:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I honestly don’t understand why, if you have no moral compulsions about killing yourself, but are unhappy enough that you would want life to end, why you are still here. People tend to have an irrational compulsion to stay alive even when death would be better; I expect because for almost all of history, most people would have been better off dead. So, the rational people all suicided and the irrational ones lived and became our ancestors. Evolution in action. > [@Derleth](#): > > I’d rather be uploaded into a computer and live that way, but the immortality described in the OP would be acceptable. And the OP’s immortality will ensure that you live long enough that uploading becomes possible. > [@flickster](#): > > Merely halting the aging process is one thing, but then you would still be facing the never ending cycle of working for a living…forever…It’s not like to could retire at 65, or even 650 :eek: I doubt it; barring a collapse of civilization I’d be surprised to see the necessity for most people to work to last another 50 years. Or the ability; there’s no law of physics that says the number of available jobs has to match the population. We’d probably have much lower employment as it is if our system wasn’t set up in a way that makes machines more expensive for employers and people less (society and parents for example taking up far more of the cost of readying a person for employment, while a company buying a machine has to pay for its manufacture up front). ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/42 "2010-08-23T16:55:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > I honestly don’t understand why, if you have no moral compulsions about killing yourself, but are unhappy enough that you would want life to end, why you are still here. > > People tend to have an irrational compulsion to stay alive even when death would be better; I expect because for almost all of history, most people would have been better off dead. So, the rational people all suicided and the irrational ones lived and became our ancestors. Evolution in action. > > And the OP’s immortality will ensure that you live long enough that uploading becomes possible. > > > [@flickster](#): > > > > Merely halting the aging process is one thing, but then you would still be facing the never ending cycle of working for a living…forever…It’s not like to could retire at 65, or even 650 :eek: > > I doubt it; barring a collapse of civilization I’d be surprised to see the necessity for most people to work to last another 50 years. Or the ability; there’s no law of physics that says the number of available jobs has to match the population. We’d probably have much lower employment as it is if our system wasn’t set up in a way that makes machines more expensive for employers and people less (society and parents for example taking up far more of the cost of readying a person for employment, while a company buying a machine has to pay for its manufacture up front). Well, if you’re talking about true immortality it’s not like one would have sufficient resources to last indefinitely after only working for 50 years. No matter where you lived you would still need to maintain your residence and pay taxes, along with covering the other normal living expenses. Another concern I have with the OP is with population. If everyone is suddenly immortal, then the planet will be heavily overpopulated in short order. In effect, your immortality may be cut short by famine and associated diseases. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/43 "2010-08-23T16:58:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I honestly don’t understand why, if you have no moral compulsions about killing yourself, but are unhappy enough that you would want life to end, why you are still here. Because other people depend on me. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/44 "2010-08-23T17:24:55Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Another concern I have with the OP is with population. If everyone is suddenly immortal, then the planet will be heavily overpopulated in short order. In effect, your immortality may be cut short by famine and associated diseases. That was my first thought as well. It wouldn’t be long at all before society would have to set some very strict ground rules regarding reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/45 "2010-08-23T18:52:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And the OP’s immortality will ensure that you live long enough that uploading becomes possible. I upload my personality. It is running on the computer. At that point, both I and the uploaded personality exist. Which is me? The answer is: I am. The simulation is NOT me, it only thinks it is. When I die, _I_ will die. The simulation will continue on, but it will still not be me. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/46 "2010-08-23T19:06:38Z")
Life is like playing poker. You know when you sit down that you don’t want to be in the casino until 4 a.m. but it’s never a good time to pull the plug. When it’s 3:59 and the dealer’s shuffling, it’s hard to say “No thanks, I don’t want another hand.” Such is life. It just deals you another day, day after day. I can sit here and say “I don’t want to watch my loved ones die around me,” but when it comes that time, I can’t imagine wanting to turn to Life and say “No thanks, I don’t want another day.” I just can’t see me ever saying “THIS DAY will be my last. I’m ready to check out NOW.” Even if life started to suck really hard, something tells me I’d repeatedly go “Good night, self. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.” for decades. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/47 "2010-08-23T19:11:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And the OP’s immortality will ensure that you live long enough that uploading becomes possible. > > I upload my personality. It is running on the computer. At that point, both I and the uploaded personality exist. Which is me? The answer is: I am. The simulation is NOT me, it only thinks it is. When I die, _I_ will die. The simulation will continue on, but it will still not be me. Does it matter who is “you” if both the original person and the computer simulation think they are? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/48 "2010-08-23T23:07:34Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Does it matter who is “you” if both the original person and the computer simulation think they are? It does to _me_, even if a third party might not care. Imagine there was another **Cat Whisperer** in existence right now living on the other side of the world, called **Cat Prime**. **Cat Prime** believes they are the original **Cat Whisperer**. You do not have control of **Cat Prime** ’s body, and you are incapable of sensing the things **Cat Prime** senses, and the same goes for them. If you die, there is no reason to assume that you’ll suddenly gain control of **Cat Prime** ’s body and senses. **Cat Prime** ’s continued existence does not change the fact that _you_ are dead. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/49 "2010-08-23T23:20:00Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > I doubt it; barring a collapse of civilization I’d be surprised to see the necessity for most people to work to last another 50 years. Or the ability; there’s no law of physics that says the number of available jobs has to match the population. We’d probably have much lower employment as it is if our system wasn’t set up in a way that makes machines more expensive for employers and people less (society and parents for example taking up far more of the cost of readying a person for employment, while a company buying a machine has to pay for its manufacture up front). > > Well, if you’re talking about true immortality it’s not like one would have sufficient resources to last indefinitely after only working for 50 years. No matter where you lived you would still need to maintain your residence and pay taxes, along with covering the other normal living expenses. I think it much more likely that eventually most people won’t work at all; the economy will be too automated. > [@Chimera](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And the OP’s immortality will ensure that you live long enough that uploading becomes possible. > > I upload my personality. It is running on the computer. At that point, both I and the uploaded personality exist. Which is me? The answer is: I am. The simulation is NOT me, it only thinks it is. When I die, _I_ will die. The simulation will continue on, but it will still not be me. I disagree; when you upload your personality, both are you. If both meat-you and machine-you continue to run afterwards, they will diverge and there will be two of you. If the meat-you is destroyed during the process (quite possible, especially as the most practical methods are likely to be destructive scans) then the question doesn’t arise because there’s never more than one version of you running. While you are free to disagree, I expect that my view will largely win out in the end for the practical reason that the people who agree with me will be immortal machines (with all the advantages that entails), and people with your position won’t be. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/50 "2010-08-23T23:27:36Z")
Well, except that hard drives fail, memory chips decay or burn out, DVDs eventually rot, metal fatigues and nothing lasts forever. So no machine will be immortal any more than we will. It’s like a former co-worker of mine who thought that once he uploaded something onto the internet, it would exist forever. Kinda burst his bubble when I pointed out that it would only exist as long as that particular server and the data on it. And it’s still not you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/51 "2010-08-24T00:08:17Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well, except that hard drives fail, memory chips decay or burn out, DVDs eventually rot, metal fatigues and nothing lasts forever. But machines unlike people can be designed to be maintained indefinitely. Or rather, it’s easier to do so; there’s no fundamental biological reason that an organic creature can’t live forever; it would just take a lot of redesign to make humans into that. > [@Chimera](#): > > And it’s still not you. It’s still me just as much as I am me; ultimately we are all copies of copies of copies. Our neurons, along with the rest of our bodies are constantly rebuilding themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/52 "2010-08-24T02:41:25Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Even if life started to suck really hard, something tells me I’d repeatedly go “Good night, self. I’ll most likely kill you in the morning.” for decades. Especially when you have a nice MLT to look forward to at lunchtime. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/53 "2010-08-24T17:38:40Z")
Would I take the pill? Hell, yes. Having come to parenthood rather late (and enjoying the hell out of it), the one thing that does bum me out is that my son and I will only have a handful of years we’ll be able to do stuff together between the time he reaches adulthood and the time my health becomes unreliable, which I expect will happen sometime around the time I turn 80. (As I watch my parents and their contemporaries, it increasingly seems that there’s something about the 80-year mark: taking good care of yourself up until then can give you excellent odds of being fit on your 80th birthday. But after that, it’s a crapshoot, no matter how you’ve lived up to that point.) I’d love to be able to hike the Highline Trail with him 30 years from now, or see how 50 looks from his perspective when he gets there. But these things won’t happen, and I already regret it, even though he’s only 3. And that aside, there are still far more things I’d like to do with my spare time than I’ll ever find the time for. So many places I’d like to go, so many things I’d like to see, so many skills I’d like to master. So sure, I’d take that pill. Whether I’d choose to live forever if I didn’t get hit by a car, catch a fatal disease (the OP said nothing about protection against illness, just aging), or fall off a mountainside, I don’t know; I expect that eventually I would choose a time to die, and drink a Kevorkian cocktail of some sort. But to know I had more time than I do, especially to see the Firebug at least up to the age I am now - I’d give a hell of a lot more than any 25¢ for that. > [@flickster](#): > > Merely halting the aging process is one thing, but then you would still be facing the never ending cycle of working for a living…forever…It’s not like to could retire at 65, or even 650 :eek: I don’t see how this is a problem. With things as they are, if I retire at 65, I have to plan for the possibility that I might live to be 95. And it wouldn’t really take much more in the retirement fund to finance a fixed income for an infinite number of years, versus merely 30 years: the present value of the infinite tail of the series is much less than that of the first 30 terms. Plus you’re not getting any older. So if you get to a point where your retirement account no longer supports you in a style you’re happy with, you can go back to college and re-enter the workforce for a generation or two. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010/54 "2010-08-24T18:03:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > > Does it matter who is “you” if both the original person and the computer simulation think they are? > > It does to _me_, even if a third party might not care. > > Imagine there was another **Cat Whisperer** in existence right now living on the other side of the world, called **Cat Prime**. **Cat Prime** believes they are the original **Cat Whisperer**. You do not have control of **Cat Prime** ’s body, and you are incapable of sensing the things **Cat Prime** senses, and the same goes for them. > > If you die, there is no reason to assume that you’ll suddenly gain control of **Cat Prime** ’s body and senses. **Cat Prime** ’s continued existence does not change the fact that _you_ are dead. A good example of this would be the Star Trek: TNG episode where Will Riker discovers that there was a second Will Riker created a few years back; they are both Will Rikers, they both _think_ they are the original Will Riker, since the second one was basically created by a probability wave collapse - one Will was saved, one Will was left on the station. For all intents and purposes, they are _both_ real Will Rikers. If our probability wave is the creation of a second me using virtual technologies, I think I can live with both versions of me thinking they are the “real” me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-immortality-if-not-why/551010.md?page=2)