# Would you accept liberty as just reparation for slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330 "2006-06-11T19:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/21 "2006-06-12T01:26:50Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Please understand that I consider equal right of peaceful pursuit of happiness fundamental to the concept and spirit of liberty and justice. There are still laws that prohibit peaceful pursuits; no matter their rational. Throw us a bone. Are you talking about pot and/or other drugs here? I can’t think of any other “peaceful pursuit” that isn’t lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/22 "2006-06-12T01:29:12Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > The real question is not “Who decides”, it is on what principles the is decision based. “We” understand the truth of inalienable rights; tyrants and the unenlightened do not. Prohibition of peaceful pursuit is tyranny; no matter the number of tyrants or form of government. > Why would the reparation of liberty for injustice not be just? If not on regulated equal right of peaceful pursuit, on what principles would you base liberty and justice for all? This isn’t about slavery or racial discrimination, is it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/23 "2006-06-12T01:55:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you only going to talk in platitudes, or are you going to actually give us specifics? I have never seen an occasion where the OP has done the latter, and no amount of chiding has made any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/24 "2006-06-12T02:04:02Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Why would the reparation of liberty for injustice not be just? If not on regulated equal right of peaceful pursuit, on what principles would you base liberty and justice for all? The argument could be made that all people deserve liberty and justice anyway; thus it would be accepting as reparations something you should expect to have irregardless of history. Sort of like having your birthday on christmas day, and only getting one present. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/25 "2006-06-12T02:06:40Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > And not only that, but to say that black Americans are better off than they would have been had slavery not existed is stupid if only for the fact that there would be no “black Americans” had slavery not existed in the first place. > > “Black Americans” are not just Africans living in America. This ethnic group is the product of African, European, and to some extent Native American lineages. To say that this group is better off as **kanic** has suggested begs the question: Better off in relation to whom? I agree. **Kanicbird** ’s argument is clearly specious. If one wanted to compare the lives of present day African-Americans to the lives of people living in parts of Africa today, that might seem on the surface of it to make some sense, but then one would have to ask onesself the question: Would you want to have put generations of your ancestors thru living hell in order to have electicity and running water\* for yourself today? That’s the kind of question that has no serious answer as we aren’t able to make that type of bargain with the past. And thankfully so! \*susbtitute any other creature comforts if ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/26 "2006-06-12T03:43:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > You can’t be this stupid. And you can’t be unaware of this Forum. Do not hurl personal insults at other posters. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/27 "2006-06-12T03:46:32Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Why would the reparation of liberty for injustice not be just? If not on regulated equal right of peaceful pursuit, on what principles would you base liberty and justice for all? Your response, here, is a _non sequiter_ to the qustion to which I responded. Until you explain what you are actually attempting to discuss, my simple negative response to your odd question is more than sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/28 "2006-06-12T03:50:36Z")
**ATTENTION POSTERS:** if it is not yet clear to you, the OP is NOT actually addressing the issue of reparations for slavery in the U.S. He has some separate intent, which _may_ be related in some abstruse manner to the issue of slave reparations, but his actual goal is to discuss some aspect of how U.S. citizens are currently enslaved by the government. (I am basing this on past threads initiated by the OP.) Feel free to engage him at whatever level you choose, but please understand that you are liable to be talking at cross purposes until he finally spits out his actual thesis. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/29 "2006-06-12T03:56:58Z")
Yes… We’ll be quite happy to eviscerate, oops, I mean _consider_ your thesis, as soon as it is rendering in some sort of coherent English. Most of us actually begin the thread with a comprehensible thesis. Might we close/euthanise this malformed thread, with a rejoinder to the author the need to begin threads with coherent questions? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/30 "2006-06-12T06:34:21Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Throw us a bone. Are you talking about pot and/or other drugs here? I can’t think of any other “peaceful pursuit” that isn’t lawful. Sounds like he’s talking about toking up to me. That , or hookers. Hey, maybe pot AND hookers? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/31 "2006-06-12T10:34:50Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Might we close/euthanise this malformed thread, with a rejoinder to the author the need to begin threads with coherent questions? With a user name like **cerberus** you must be familiar with some mythology. Are you forgetting about the myth of the [Hydra](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra)? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/32 "2006-06-12T17:07:05Z")
**ATTENTION POSTERS:** I am indeed addressing the issues of reparations for slavery in the U.S. The truth is that our nation exists and gains its legitimacy by the Declaration of Independence and that document clearly states that the right of pursuit of happiness is inalienable (cannot be justly denied). I am sad to say that these simple truths seem beyond the understanding of tyrants and certain moderators. They would limit certain peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. My questions remain: As a descendent of slaves, would you settle for your full rights of liberty in lieu of monetary reparation? As a descendent of patriots, would you offer full rights of liberty in reparation for past injustice and sacrifice? Again I ask **tomndebb** : Why, as a descendant of either patriot or enslaved, would you not accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors? Let us either discuss the reasoning behind the negative answers or agree this solution is just. Peace r~ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/33 "2006-06-12T17:16:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Why, as a descendant of either patriot or enslaved, would you not accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors? Were I the descendant of slaves, I would certainly feel that I got pretty short shrift if, having oppressed my forebears with slavery, then imposing other restrictions on their liberty when slavery was (nominally) abolished, along with being restricted to movement and compensation for hundreds of years, my oppressors simply told me, “OK, you’re free. Go off and compete freely in the world with the descendants of all the other people who suffered no similar impositions.” I am not in favor of monetary reparations for a whole host of reasons discussed in other threads, but I think that simply telling people that “Now that we’ve kicked you around and ground you into the dirt, simply telling you to go be free makes up for all the problems you may have inherited from the timew when we enslaved you.” (And, has been pointed out in several of your earlier threads (even thoh\ught you refuse to believe it), the Declaration of Independence may have stated lofty goals, but its only act in law was to separate the Thirteen Colonies from Britain and your other claims for its power are simply wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/34 "2006-06-12T17:25:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Were I the descendant of slaves, I would certainly feel that I got pretty short shrift if, having oppressed my forebears with slavery, then imposing other restrictions on their liberty when slavery was (nominally) abolished, along with being restricted to movement and compensation for hundreds of years, my oppressors simply told me, “OK, you’re free. Go off and compete freely in the world with the descendants of all the other people who suffered no similar impositions.” That’s why we have affirmative action programs - to try to clear out legacy injustices without any actual reparations changing hands. It isn’t reasonably possible to identify who should be the payer and who the recipient of those, even if you don’t think they were already paid by the Civil War. But you certainly can identify, expose, and compensate to some rough degree for the effects of slavery and Jim Crow that have lingered through the generations. You do have to get into the problem of a social group that, upon having its privileges reduced, claims to be newly discriminated against, of course, and we’ve certainly been around _that_ barn a few times in this forum. **rwjefferson** , what do you mean by “descendant of patriots”? I’m a patriot in my \*own \* right, thank you very much, and almost anyone would claim the same thing. Were slaveowners especially patriotic to you? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/35 "2006-06-12T17:31:01Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > As a descendent of slaves, would you settle for your full rights of liberty in lieu of monetary reparation? Apples is to oranges as liberty is to reparations. Reparations is compensation for a previous wrong. With respect to slavery, that “wrong” was the refusal to bestow liberty to black people. Giving black people access to liberty through the abolition of slavery is not a compensatory action. It is simply putting an end to a long-standing wrong. Like removing a knife from someone’s back. Reparations goes one step further beyond simply ending a wrong. It is _payment_ for that wrong. It’s an attempt to settle the score, so to speak. It is awarding damages to the victim of back-stabbing. As a descendant of slaves, I bristle at any notion that simply getting what is due to me as decreed by the US Constitution is in any shape or form compensation for what my ancestors had to endure. I don’t want reparations, but the idea that liberty should be seen as some kind of substitute… Thinking that puts a bitter taste in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/36 "2006-06-12T17:49:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not in favor of monetary reparations for a whole host of reasons discussed in other threads, but … simply telling you to go be free makes up for all the problems you may have inherited from the timew when we enslaved you." As has been pointed out…your other claims for its power are simply wrong. Pointing out is not the same as the proof beyond reasonable doubt required to deny liberty. What then, would suggest as just reparation? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **rwjefferson** , what do you mean by “descendant of patriots”? I’m a patriot in my \*own \* right, thank you very much, and almost anyone would claim the same thing. Were slaveowners especially patriotic to you? Apologies in my difficulty in making myself clear. I define patriot as per the DoI: one that stands up to tyranny and seeks to secure equal rights for all. One may call themselves what they wish, but if they deny liberty, they are not a patriot in spirit. r~ ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/37 "2006-06-12T17:51:45Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Apologies in my difficulty in making myself clear. I define patriot as per the DoI: one that stands up to tyranny and seeks to secure equal rights for all. How do you define “full rights of liberty”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/38 "2006-06-12T17:56:06Z")
What, specifically, do you mean by \*\*“full rights of liberty”? \*\* Those are pretty words, but in practical terms what would be the effect on the day-to-day existence of American blacks? (BTW, my ancestors were slaveholders. Sorry about that. If it makes you feel any better, they were driven off their land by Andrew Jackson and force to march at gunpoint to the Indian Territory. But they took their slaves with them. But when the Civil War came they freed their slaves and fought on the Union Side. Complicated … .) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/39 "2006-06-12T18:08:55Z")
As **tomndebb** predicted earlier, this thread is a mess. Until rwjefferson makes the terms of the debate a little clearer it’s futile to respond. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/40 "2006-06-12T19:50:12Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Slavery world wide was not the specific chattel slavery that was developed by Europeans and Arabs through the 16th - 18th centuries. Claims that “everybody did it” are historically bankrupt. **tomndebb** I am still waiting for a answer to this: What were the fundenmental differences between the treatment of 16-18 century slave and the (non-jewish) slave stated in the Bible (as Jewish slaves were slaves only for 7 years, but then again the African slaves were most likely not Jewish anyway.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330.md?page=3)