# Would you accept liberty as just reparation for slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330 "2006-06-11T19:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/41 "2006-06-12T20:36:12Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > **ATTENTION POSTERS:** I am indeed addressing the issues of reparations for slavery in the U.S. Insofar as what follows looks a _little bit_ like a coherent set of arguments, I’ll give it a shot. > [@](#): > > The truth is that our nation exists and gains its legitimacy by the Declaration of Independence and that document clearly states that the right of pursuit of happiness is inalienable (cannot be justly denied). Incorrect. The Constitution and attached amendments are the legitimate basis of the United States. The DoI is an important historical document but is not the wellspring of law and civil rights in the U.S. > [@](#): > > I am sad to say that these simple truths seem beyond the understanding of tyrants and certain moderators. They would limit certain peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. Tyrants aside, the moderators of this board are under no legal obligation to recognize your right to “peaceful pursuits”. > [@](#): > > My questions remain: > > As a descendent of slaves, would you settle for your full rights of liberty in lieu of monetary reparation? I demand full rights as a citizen of a liberal democracy, regardless of what my ancestors may have suffered. > [@](#): > > As a descendent of patriots, would you offer full rights of liberty in reparation for past injustice and sacrifice? I want my fellow citizens of a liberal democracy to have full rights regardless of the actions of my ancestors. > [@](#): > > Again I ask **tomndebb** : Why, as a descendant of either patriot or enslaved, would you not accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors? If I may dare make a guess on tomndebb’s behalf, I don’t think he sees the two as inextricably linked. I’m not sure anyone other than you does. I’m pretty sure, also, that he doesn’t know precisely what you mean by “peaceful pursuit” since you’ve never (as far as I know) answered any request to define the term in any usable fashion, preferring instead to heap on more rhetoric. Personally, I’d be disinclined to answer someone who uses made-up terminology, fails to offer definitions and then accuses me of lacking understanding, but I bet he’s used to it. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/42 "2006-06-12T21:54:39Z")
Liberty is a word that multiple meanings. In the specific sense, it is the opposite of imprisonment – as in life, liberty, etc. However, in the broad or “full” or spiritual sense, liberty includes the equal right of (peaceful) pursuit of happiness. You may assume that I generally use the word liberty to signify the spirit of liberty. > [@you with the face](#): > > Reparations is compensation for a previous wrong… It is _payment_ for that wrong… I bristle at any notion that simply getting what is due to me as decreed by the US Constitution is in any shape or form compensation for what my ancestors had to endure. I don’t want reparations, but the idea that liberty should be seen as some kind of substitute… Thinking that puts a bitter taste in my mouth. I agree that the rights I am asking are already ours; but maintain they are still denied. I would also agree that (the tyranny still found in the unenlightened interpretation of) the U.S. Constitution in no way shape or form compensates either the descendants of slaves or patriots. It is my understanding that minorities are the majority in prison. I would suggest that this is simply the result of today’s tyrants that deny certain otherwise peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. Because they do not understand or accept the spirit of liberty, they still deny it to US. I would still consider as a minimum, (full) liberty as just reparation for past injustice. Would you not agree with that as a start? r~ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/43 "2006-06-12T22:03:44Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I would still consider as a minimum, (full) liberty as just reparation for past injustice. This all comes down to what you mean by **“full liberty”**. What changes are you proposing to our current laws and policies, and what would be the effect on the day-to-day lives of black people? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/44 "2006-06-12T22:10:47Z")
Peaceful quest. We’ve been thru this before, and it didn’t go very well then either. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/45 "2006-06-12T22:27:27Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I demand full rights as a citizen of a liberal democracy… I’m pretty sure, also, that he doesn’t know precisely what you mean by “peaceful pursuit”. I will assume that your definition of full rights is “all the rights a liberal democracy allows” and not as I have just defined them. [Peaceful](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=peaceful): (1) undisturbed by strife [Pursuit](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pursuit): (3) an activity A peaceful pursuit is any activity that does not create strife. I call any law that denies or prohibits peaceful pursuit “tyranny”. Others call it “justice” and find the fault my words. r~ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/46 "2006-06-12T22:35:42Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I will assume that your definition of full rights is “all the rights a liberal democracy allows” and not as I have just defined them. > > [Peaceful](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=peaceful): (1) undisturbed by strife > [Pursuit](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pursuit): (3) an activity > > A peaceful pursuit is any activity that does not create strife. > I call any law that denies or prohibits peaceful pursuit “tyranny”. > Others call it “justice” and find the fault my words. > > r~ We’ve seen you play that record before. Can you give a specific example of a peaceful quest? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/47 "2006-06-12T22:39:23Z")
For goodness’ sake, give some specifics. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/48 "2006-06-12T22:41:23Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > … what would be the effect on the day-to-day lives of black people? It is my understanding that minorities are the majority in prison. I would suggest that this is simply the result of today’s tyrants that deny certain otherwise peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. Families might have their loved ones home and working instead of in jail for sin of vice. r~defs crime: denial or threat to peace(ful pursuit) sin: alleged affront to god (a.k.a. morality) r~ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/49 "2006-06-12T23:02:21Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > It is my understanding that minorities are the majority in prison. I would suggest that this is simply the result of today’s tyrants that deny certain otherwise peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. You need to do more than “suggest”, you need to offer proof. Otherwise, I’m just going to say that I “suggest” you are wrong. Where does that leave us? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/50 "2006-06-12T23:10:33Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > We’ve seen you play that record before. Can you give a specific example of a peaceful quest? I would consider a patriot offering service to defend the liberty of others as the most peaceful quest of all. Yet some find this quest for peace as [threat](http://www.danpinello.com/Dronenburg.htm). It just makes me want to…bork! r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/51 "2006-06-12T23:15:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > You need to do more than “suggest”, you need to offer proof. Otherwise, I’m just going to say that I “suggest” you are wrong. Where does that leave us? At least I have an proposed an explanation. Please suggest a more likely alternative before you make another. r~ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/52 "2006-06-12T23:30:07Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > It is my understanding that minorities are the majority in prison. I would suggest that this is simply the result of today’s tyrants that deny certain otherwise peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice. You edited out the important part of my question: **What changes are you proposing to our current laws and policies,** and what would be the effect on the day-to-day lives of black people? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/53 "2006-06-13T00:24:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What were the fundenmental differences between the treatment of 16-18 century slave and the (non-jewish) slave stated in the Bible (as Jewish slaves were slaves only for 7 years, but then again the African slaves were most likely not Jewish anyway.) Throughout most of history, people have been forced into slavery for the payment of debts or as the result of being captured as prisoners of war. In most (not all) of those situations, the slave had a finite period after which he or she would be freed (debt repayment) or the slave could win emancipation through service. In chattel slavery, the slave is mere property with no rights and no legal protections. If you review the Torah commands regarding slaves, you will note that they are provided some protections under the law, both from their masters and from others in the populace. While chattel slavery had occurred, from time to time, in other parts of the world, the 16th century innovation was that an industry was created, the sole purpose of which was to enslave people and place them in chattel slavery. (Earlier, there was a thriving industry among the Southern Europeans enslaving the slavic peoples, but they were not placed into chattel slavery, maintaining some rights and privileges as persons.) The other aspect, in regards to Africa, was that slavery not only removed population, it provided the impetus to destroy existing infrastructure. In the 14th and early 15th century, the African kingdoms of Mali and Songhay were the equal of many European nations in military srtrength, mathematics and architecture,arts and letters, bureaucratic organization, and other markers of civilization. When Europeans decided to establish a slave trade, they actively undermined those countries in an attempt to secure better slave trading rights. Thus, the locations in Africa which might have provided a basis for modernization were deliberately destroyed, leaving the continent open to raw colonialism in the 19th century. Whereas Eastern Asian countries were often conquered or controlled by Europeans, leaving their social institutions intact to provide a base on which to enter the 20th and 21st centuries, African nations were simply chopped up and re-assembled according to the whims of Europeans without regard to the societies that had existed, previously, creating a chaotic situation in which ethnic rivalries and conflicts more closely resembled Europe in the 9th century. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/54 "2006-06-13T00:25:55Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > You edited out the important part of my question: **What changes are you proposing to our current laws and policies,** Sorry. What do you think would happen if we well-regulated the vices that are now prohibited. (Well regulated means tuned to minimize strife in r~def.) **BTW** Would someone please quote the passage in the constitution that authorizes the prohibition of peaceful pursuit. r~ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/55 "2006-06-13T00:30:59Z")
What is “peaceful pursuit”? And what was that about “crow” in the OP? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/56 "2006-06-13T00:34:57Z")
Jefferson, this isn’t the Pit, and I therefore can’t place the sort of frustrated emphasis I’d like on the following – but, please, I beg of you, _ **itemize** _. Polygamy? Homosexuality? Recreational drug use? Exemption from the draft? Physician-assisted suicide? All of these? None of them? Some but not others? What do you have in mind? _ **Specify** _. We’re actually willing to have a great debate about this, but we honestly don’t know what your position is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/57 "2006-06-13T00:38:42Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Sorry. What do you think would happen if we well-regulated the vices that are now prohibited. (Well regulated means tuned to minimize strife in r~def.) So you are suggesting that we should legalize and regulate vice as reparation for slavery, correct? Which vices are you thinking of in particular? Drugs? Prostitution? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/58 "2006-06-13T00:43:03Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Pointing out is not the same as the proof beyond reasonable doubt required to deny liberty. What then, would suggest as just reparation? “Proof beyond reasonable doubt” is a principle used in criminal law to define the quality of evidence required for a conviction. It has no history in philosophical discussion. You are attempting to use it, here, simply to deny that your arguments are based on your own personal beliefs that lack an actual underpinning. I am not going to waste much more time going in circles with you on your odd personal wishes. I will point out that, based on your arguments (such as they are) in this thread, you appear to wish to deny any reparations to any victims of slavery. Consider: - It is your contention that some vague and never fully explained “liberty” is the absolute right of all persons in the U.S. - You seem to assert that both those who were enslaved and those who were never enslaved would be made whole by the extension of this ill-defined “liberty.” - Since the extension of this ill-defined “liberty” would make no _material_ difference to the lives of persons who had either been harmed or helped by the enslavement of previous generations, the only “reparation” you are offering to people who have suffered is the right to toke up (or engage in some similar passtime) with people who have not suffered. That does not meet the minimum standards for matching a definition of “reparation.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/59 "2006-06-13T03:45:24Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I would consider a patriot offering service to defend the liberty of others as the most peaceful quest of all. So that’s a “no”? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330/60 "2006-06-13T11:38:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is “peaceful pursuit”? And what was that about “crow” in the OP? [Peaceful](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=peaceful): (1) undisturbed by strife [Pursuit](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pursuit): (3) an activity A peaceful pursuit is any activity that does not create strife. I call any law that denies or prohibits peaceful pursuit “tyranny”. Others call it “justice” and find the fault my words. It is my understanding that minorities are the majority in prison. I would suggest that this is simply the result of today’s tyrants that deny certain otherwise peaceful pursuits by their own prejudice (jim crow laws). r~ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-accept-liberty-as-just-reparation-for-slavery/360330.md?page=4)