Would you "accept" this compromise on abortion?

In My Humble Opinion
81

Does that mean that you think abortion ought to be outlawed for people who did use contraception when they voluntarily had sex, if the contraception method they used wasn’t “smart” enough, according to you?

Can you specify exactly what circumstances you think make abortion of an unwanted pregnancy permissible?

Because at first you seemed to be saying that people who have unprotected sex are at fault if it results in an unwanted pregnancy, so they’re not entitled to an abortion.

And now you seem to be saying that people who aren’t having unprotected sex are still at fault if it results in an unwanted pregnancy because the contraception fails. So they’re not entitled to an abortion either?

Does it depend on what contraception method they’re using? What form of contraceptive use qualifies as being “smart” enough to justify the user in seeking an abortion if the contraception fails?

Remember, as DavidNRockies pointed out, at least half of people who have abortions were using contraception but got pregnant anyway.

82

Even back in the '80s and '90s, before state legislatures started getting really aggressive about abortion restrictions, there weren’t tons of people just deliberately having unprotected sex because they figured getting an abortion was NBD. Nobody wants an unwanted pregnancy, pretty much by definition.

There have always been and will always be many people who are willing to accept some level of risk of an unwanted pregnancy in order to have sex, and the legality or illegality of abortion isn’t going to change that.

Honestly, Bullitt, I am a bit shocked at how naive you’re being about this. If you have a religious belief in fetal personhood and want to ban abortion for that reason, that’s your right (although in that case, I don’t see how you can possibly justify allowing abortions for rape victims: isn’t a fetus conceived via rape just as much a person as any other fetus?).

But if you are trying to persuade yourself that the outlawing of abortion is not going to lead to a whole lot of horrible shit that will make life hell (and/or make life literally impossible, as in, result in actual death) for a lot of pregnant people, I’m sorry to say it, but you’re living in a fool’s paradise.

The “pro-life” movement may have been pushing the pleasant fiction that banning abortion will save all the fetal lives, and women will just stop having unwanted pregnancies because they’ll get a “wake-up call” to be more responsible about sex, and in the very few cases that an unwanted pregnancy occurs Jesus will make the mother learn to love her darling baby and everything will be fine. But, spoiler alert: that’s not what’s going to happen.

Lots and lots and lots of unwanted pregnancies will still occur, because people will still use contraception methods that will sometimes fail, and many women will still often be forced or persuaded into unprotected sex, and many couples will just occasionally make a bad decision about pregnancy risks. And unwillingly pregnant people will still seek to terminate their unwanted pregnancies, and many of them will do so, in many cases with catastrophic legal and health consequences that they could have avoided by safe and legal abortions. And many others will not be able to do so, in many cases with other catastrophic consequences, for themselves and/or for their partners and/or resulting children, that they also could have avoided by safe and legal abortions.

And we will all remember that your wilfully naive, shallow and dismissive response to all this unnecessary hell was just “Tough shit, ladies, shoulda kept your legs closed.”

83

Do you think its a good idea to have so many stupid people responsible for raising children?

84

I’m not. To be anti-choice, you have to either be incredibly naive, or incredibly cynical. It’s clear enough which side he comes down on.

85

There’s some interesting research that’s not particularly new on the likelihood vs the severity of adverse consequences and the impact on decision-making. A lot of it has been in the realm of criminal justice; they found that thinking you’re more likely to get caught has at least some deterrent effect on criminals, while increasing only the severity of punishment if you do get caught doesn’t change much in terms of the criminal’s risk calculus. Anyway, I think this is a broader trend in human psychology than just criminals. As you point out, an unwanted pregnancy is something no one wants. People who believe they’re very likely to get pregnant without precautions are more likely to take those precautions than those who believe they’re not likely to get pregnant (e.g. women going through menopause or who have other reasons to think they’re infertile.) But raising the penalty for getting pregnant from having to endure an abortion (usually minor suckage) to having to endure pregnancy and childbirth (pretty major suckage) isn’t likely to have much of a deterrent/pro-contraception effect. And indeed, we don’t really see the rate of unplanned pregnancies go down when/ where abortion is outlawed. But it’s futile to try to reason with the pro-punishment crowd, because they don’t really care about deterrence/birth control. The punishment is the point.

86

Yes, women have always had abortions. We know what herbs the ancient Romans used as abortifacients. Women had coat hanger abortions when they were illegal. The availability of abortion has little to do with how likely people are to have sex.

What increased the acceptance of sex-when-babies-aren’t-desired wasn’t legalizing abortion, it was better birth control, and especially birth control that the woman could control, the pill and IUDs. Technological advancements that greatly reduced the odds of getting pregnant.

87

And which largely were around before Roe (though they’ve been improved since). Though mind you, it still took an actual SCOTUS case (Griswold) to establish that contraception itself was not something subject to being outlawed.

88

Theres a story in People magazine of how a woman had to go to court to keep her rapist(the father) from getting custody.
The solution-perfect birth control. Sadly, its not here yet.