# Would you be happy if you knew civilization was collapsing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 19, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982 "2009-08-19T19:06:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/41 "2009-08-20T20:05:02Z")
And no, I wouldn’t be happy about it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/42 "2009-08-20T20:13:19Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The interesting thing is that if civilization does collapse, the people who will survive are those who don’t let their local part of civilization collapse. The survivors aren’t going to be survivalist-types, they’ll be people in tight-knit communities that don’t allow the community to fall apart. The winners won’t be biker outlaws, they’ll be Mormons. Or the Amish, and a buttload of subsistence farmers in Africa and Asia. It would be interesting to see who colonizes who. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/43 "2009-08-20T20:20:26Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Would you be happy if you knew civilization was collapsing? > Or does this possibility really bother you? I am very fond of civilization - or what passes for civilization around here. Thank you very much. > [@DianaG](#): > > Nature sucks. The whole \*point \*of civilization is to not \*have \*to live with the natural order, which, let me repeat, sucks. > > Thanks, but I LIKE running water, internet access, V&Ts, **and the distinct lack of roving gangs of murderous looters.** Well, that depends where you live. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/44 "2009-08-20T20:23:35Z")
> [@Dickerman](#): > > I’ve yet to figure out how to make beer (and keep it cool) or whiskey, so I prefer that civilization-as-I-know-it stick around for at least forty more years. I can make both, so I’m set. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/45 "2009-08-20T21:42:05Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Actually, my first thoughts were, “Well, I know a couple of ways to purify water, and we’ve got everything in the garden, plus our stock of seeds - if we could just get our hands on a few goats and chickens, we’d be doing pretty well…” > > I’m not saying that everyone would think this way, but I think it might be more than you assume. I do think a huge factor in how people would react is whether they think it’s a permanent situation or a temporary problem, and if temporary, how likely it is that things can get back to “normal”. I think if it’s clearly a permanent situation, there would certainly be some panic and looting at first, but people would realize pretty quickly that all the existing food and water in the world can only last so long, and they’d have to start preparing for the long term. > > Also, there’s a pretty interesting [show on the Discovery Channel](http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/colony/colony.html) right now that’s very relevant to this thread. The problem with setting out to purify water and grow stuff would be that, unless you happened to live in some extremely remote area, you’d quickly be overrun by very hungry, desperate and possibly armed folks who _can’t_ get their hands on a stock of goats and seeds … or rather, they _can_, but only by taking them from _you_. Chances are you won’t be left in peace to make greenhouses and windmills. That is, unless your civilization-ending event is something that zaps a goodly portion of the world’s population. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/46 "2009-08-20T21:54:40Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > In fact, I can’t help but think less of those who claim they would be happy for billions of people to die, because they think it would benefit rain forests, sloths, and monkeys. I’d say more, but I don’t want to start a Pit thread. I apologize if you were offended enough to consider a pit thread, but I personally don’t think of humans as being any ‘better’ or ‘more valuable’ than animals. I realize that most humans equate intelligence and highly developed nervous systems to being higher on some cosmic totem pole, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/47 "2009-08-20T22:02:48Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > I apologize if you were offended enough to consider a pit thread, but I personally don’t think of humans as being any ‘better’ or ‘more valuable’ than animals. I realize that most humans equate intelligence and highly developed nervous systems to being higher on some cosmic totem pole, but I don’t. That’s kind of frightening. Do you mean that in your opinion eating a fish and killing a human child are _morally_ equivalent? ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/48 "2009-08-20T22:15:46Z")
On second thought, I wasn’t being completely forthcoming when I said “happy as a clam.” It’s not exactly happiness at the chaos and horrible misery that I’d feel, but something else: a sense of _relief_ at the return to normalcy. Humanity spent 99% of its history much as other mammals in their natural state: fearful of predators (human or otherwise), short-lived, and scrabbling to survive. A sizable minority of us still do live that way. That’s just how organisms operate, and the (sort of) unique evolutionary adaptation of consciousness doesn’t somehow keep us from being animals. In my opinion, what we consider first-world western civilization simply can’t last. It’s a blip and an aberration. And if I were to survive through it, I’d just be happy that the collapse of civilization didn’t last a few hundred years and/or cause the extinction of _Homo sapiens_. Although the part of my brain that loves Fallout would probably genuinely enjoy the apocalypse. For a while. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/49 "2009-08-20T22:23:17Z")
> [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](#): > > On second thought, I wasn’t being completely forthcoming when I said “happy as a clam.” It’s not exactly happiness at the chaos and horrible misery that I’d feel, but something else: a sense of _relief_ at the return to normalcy. Humanity spent 99% of its history much as other mammals in their natural state: fearful of predators (human or otherwise), short-lived, and scrabbling to survive. A sizable minority of us still do live that way. That’s just how organisms operate, and the (sort of) unique evolutionary adaptation of consciousness doesn’t somehow keep us from being animals. You _want_ your life to be nasty, brutish and short? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/50 "2009-08-20T23:01:10Z")
You think you’d feel “relief” at a return to a “normalcy” you’ve never experienced, and only dimly understand the ramifications of? Really now? You know, apparently birds used to be dinosaurs. Do you think they’d feel relief if we chopped down all the trees and clipped their wings? After all, it’d just be return to normalcy. ---
**Author:** ![Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gam_Zeh_Yaavor)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/51 "2009-08-21T00:37:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You _want_ your life to be nasty, brutish and short? I would personally loathe it for the most part, and probably would regret every second until I die of scurvy or radioactive brain worms that I had ever had a strange sort of hope that it would happen. Yet from an existential perspective I think it would be oddly positive: the emptiness and anomie of life kinda disappears when you have to focus on fending off raiders and keeping your turnip crop from failing and hoping that the priests report good auguries. That’s what we’re made for. > [@DianaG](#): > > You think you’d feel “relief” at a return to a “normalcy” you’ve never experienced, and only dimly understand the ramifications of? Really now? > > You know, apparently birds used to be dinosaurs. Do you think they’d feel relief if we chopped down all the trees and clipped their wings? After all, it’d just be return to normalcy. If I were a (cognizant) dinosaur, I’d be relieved if the bolide only decimated my species instead of annihilating it. I’m not saying there’ll be anything “good” about it; it’s not a matter of good and bad. But it’s gotta happen sooner or later. I don’t want any harm to come to (almost) anyone, but the underlying entropy is real. The earth will get consumed by the sun, the human race will eventually going to go extinct, and in the meantime civilizations will rise and fall, though it’s questionable whether there’ll be any more after us. That’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Cagey\_Drifter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@Cagey\_Drifter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cagey_Drifter)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/52 "2009-08-21T00:46:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s kind of frightening. Do you mean that in your opinion eating a fish and killing a human child are _morally_ equivalent? That’s not really a fair comparison. I’d say eating a fish and eating a human child are morally equivalent. Doesn’t mean I’d be more likely to eat a child in real life. Eating children doesn’t interest me, and laws and social norms prevent it. But if I were God, I’d see them as the same. I understand why people might be shocked by me saying this, but on what basis should one life count for more than another? And should my views on the value of life be dictated by social norms and homophily? I don’t buy it. If you believe a child is more “valuable” than a fish you should be able to express why you think that is true, and I haven’t heard a single rationale that isn’t based on some self-serving (to humans) explanation or personal convenience. I think if a fish could talk, it would probably tell you that it thinks that killing a fish is far worse than killing a human child-- for the same reasons! And before I get questioned about it, yes, I do _perceive_ more tragedy in a child’s death than in a fish’s death, but only because of conditioning and my own ability to relate to the feelings of the child and the relatives-- not because I believe there is more inherent value. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/53 "2009-08-21T05:38:32Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > That’s not really a fair comparison. I’d say eating a fish and eating a human child are morally equivalent. Doesn’t mean I’d be more likely to eat a child in real life. Eating children doesn’t interest me, and laws and social norms prevent it. But if I were God, I’d see them as the same. I understand why people might be shocked by me saying this, but on what basis should one life count for more than another? And should my views on the value of life be dictated by social norms and homophily? I don’t buy it. If you believe a child is more “valuable” than a fish you should be able to express why you think that is true, and I haven’t heard a single rationale that isn’t based on some self-serving (to humans) explanation or personal convenience. I think if a fish could talk, it would probably tell you that it thinks that killing a fish is far worse than killing a human child-- for the same reasons! > > And before I get questioned about it, yes, I do _perceive_ more tragedy in a child’s death than in a fish’s death, but only because of conditioning and my own ability to relate to the feelings of the child and the relatives-- not because I believe there is more inherent value. Good, evil, morals, superiority, inferiority, guess who invented these concepts? Humans did. If we asked a fish whether it thought killing its babies or killing a baby human was worse, it’d just flop there stupidly. If fish could talk and were sentient, then obviously its own set of morals would put fish above all other animals. You can pontificate all you want about inherent moral objectivity, but the fact is that all these ideas are human-centric. We empathize with our own species, just like every other species does, it’s only natural. You can call it “selfish” but really, what’s the point? Everything anyone does it selfish. Preserving the environment is only “good” because it is beneficial to humans, whether its to keep our food sources or to make us feel better about ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/54 "2009-08-21T08:30:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or the Amish, and a buttload of subsistence farmers in Africa and Asia. Not to mention the various kibbutzim in Israel. Tight-knit, self-reliant and well-armed. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/55 "2009-08-21T13:53:38Z")
> [@Gam\_Zeh\_Yaavor](#): > > I would personally loathe it for the most part, and probably would regret every second until I die of scurvy or radioactive brain worms that I had ever had a strange sort of hope that it would happen. Yet from an existential perspective I think it would be oddly positive: the emptiness and anomie of life kinda disappears when you have to focus on fending off raiders and keeping your turnip crop from failing and hoping that the priests report good auguries. That’s what we’re made for. We aren’t “made” for agriculture - that’s almost as ‘new’ as living in cities. If anything, we are “made” to be hunter-gatherers. There are still places in the world one can attempt this with minimal interference, though admittedly they aren’t the _easiest_ places to survive by hunting and gathering. Try Labrador. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/56 "2009-08-21T13:57:29Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > That’s not really a fair comparison. I’d say eating a fish and eating a human child are morally equivalent. Doesn’t mean I’d be more likely to eat a child in real life. Eating children doesn’t interest me, and laws and social norms prevent it. But if I were God, I’d see them as the same. I understand why people might be shocked by me saying this, but on what basis should one life count for more than another? And should my views on the value of life be dictated by social norms and homophily? I don’t buy it. If you believe a child is more “valuable” than a fish you should be able to express why you think that is true, and I haven’t heard a single rationale that isn’t based on some self-serving (to humans) explanation or personal convenience. I think if a fish could talk, it would probably tell you that it thinks that killing a fish is far worse than killing a human child-- for the same reasons! > > And before I get questioned about it, yes, I do _perceive_ more tragedy in a child’s death than in a fish’s death, but only because of conditioning and my own ability to relate to the feelings of the child and the relatives-- not because I believe there is more inherent value. If a fish could talk, it would be _correct_ in its assertion that it’s death is a tragedy. That’s the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/57 "2009-08-21T14:30:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The problem with setting out to purify water and grow stuff would be that, unless you happened to live in some extremely remote area, you’d quickly be overrun by very hungry, desperate and possibly armed folks who _can’t_ get their hands on a stock of goats and seeds … or rather, they _can_, but only by taking them from _you_. Chances are you won’t be left in peace to make greenhouses and windmills. This would definitely be a problem and a reason that people could survive on their own. The difference between the group starting up civilization and the people doing the looting is that the former group has a reason to no tear itself apart. All that is necessary is to have good enough defenses to wait out the aggressors because in theory there is food and water available inside but not out, that’s why they want in. I think Alessan has the right add-on to what groups need to survive. > [@Alessan](#): > > Not to mention the various kibbutzim in Israel. Tight-knit, self-reliant and well-armed. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/58 "2009-08-21T14:31:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You _want_ your life to be **nasty, brutish and short**? Dude, that’s my _profile_! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/59 "2009-08-21T14:42:45Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > This would definitely be a problem and a reason that people could survive on their own. The difference between the group starting up civilization and the people doing the looting is that the former group has a reason to no tear itself apart. All that is necessary is to have good enough defenses to wait out the aggressors because in theory there is food and water available inside but not out, that’s why they want in. I think Alessan has the right add-on to what groups need to survive. The difficulty is that the “growers” are of necessity more vulnerable than the “aggressors”. They need not only protect themselves, but also their investments: fields and livestock as well. Not to say that some groups wouldn’t make a success of it, but it is defininitely going to be a major problem: our comparatively huge populations are simply not sustainable by subsistance farming, and for every person having the knowledge and materials to make a start of it, there is going to be a hundred who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982/60 "2009-08-21T14:52:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not to say that some groups wouldn’t make a success of it, but it is defininitely going to be a major problem: our comparatively huge populations are simply not sustainable by subsistance farming, and for every person having the knowledge and materials to make a start of it, there is going to be a hundred who don’t. Yep, I figure something like 40% causalities. It’s those challenges that I find interesting though, there are very few opportunities to face life and death on a day to day basis on such a wide variety of issues from how it irrigate the crops to how best to transition from guns to bows. That is why I think despite disliking the death and hardships I would enjoy the end of civilization. Of course how civilization is destroyed will affect all of the scenarios not to mention how long you do the minimum just waiting for civilization to rebuild itself. I know I probably would stay in the area for a while hoping that everything would restart and I could go to work the next day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-if-you-knew-civilization-was-collapsing/506982.md?page=4)