# Would you be happy with this reponse to a complaint about "deaf and dumb". **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 17, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822 "2008-07-17T13:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/61 "2008-07-18T21:12:30Z")
I got my fill of this in college when the student handbook said something like: “Never call a person handicapped, call him or her disabled. Just because a person has a disability does NOT mean he or she is handicapped.” What a bunch of wordspeak that was. You could reverse it and it would sound just as good: “Never call a person disabled, call him or her handicapped. Just because a person has a handicap does NOT mean he or she is disabled.” That sounds just as PC does it not? I don’t see a good solution for the name calling, though. Assign whatever word you want to a “mentally challenged” person. Call that condition a “warbler”. Ten years from now kids will be calling each other warblers in a derisive manner, and society will be forced to change the word again. Idiot, moron, lunatic, and imbecile used to be medical terms. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/62 "2008-07-18T22:07:08Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] An analogy in the US might be the NAACP. Nobody says “colored people” any more, but I doubt they get a lot of angry letters insisting they change it. [/QUOTE] Maybe they DO get angry letters asking for a change of phrasing. I know that many service agencies that provide for people with intellectual disabilities HAVE been asked to change their names (Department of Mental Retardation where I live, Association for Retarded Citizens organizations in multiple areas). The difficulty becomes an issue of being recognized–people know these organizations by their old names and there are concerns that changing names would create confusion about whether it was a new agency or the long-established one. [QUOTE=Malacandra] No, the idea is that you should put the important part, “person”, first, and then the qualifier. At least, some twats of stupidity think so. [/QUOTE] Speaking of being offended… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/63 "2008-07-18T22:23:14Z")
Jesus Christ people. This isn’t about euphemisms. You know what term people who can’t hear use to mean “not able to hear”? Deaf. Deaf is a perfectly acceptable, perfectly accurate word. Francesca isn’t upset about the word “deaf”. She’s not asking them to change the phrase to “differently auditory” or “vocalization challenged”. She thinks it should be changed from “deaf and dumb language” to “sign language”. Is that so hard to understand? The trouble with the phrase “deaf and dumb” is that the word “dumb” while it originally mean “can’t talk” now means “stupid” in American english. So “deaf and dumb” implies that the person is stupid. And besides, “deaf and dumb” is silly, because plenty of deaf people are able to speak. Deafness usually doesn’t impair the vocal cords. And “deaf and dumb language” is stupid as well, because plenty of deaf people can’t sign, and plenty of hearing people can. And it’s not like there’s some newfangled confusing euphemism that you’re being pressured to use, since the alternative is “sign language”. Is “sign language” too confusing for you all? As for the contention that "real deaf people aren’t offended by the term “deaf and dumb, so why are you”?, well, how many real deaf people do you know? It actually is offensive to lots and lots of deaf people. It’s usually inaccurate, and it implies that the “deaf and dumb” person is stupid. Why wouldn’t it be offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/64 "2008-07-18T22:28:20Z")
You summed it up beautifully, **Lemur**. My closest deaf friends are offended by the term “deaf and dumb” because (a) they can speak quite well, so they aren’t “can’t speak” dumb and (b) one is a teacher and the other is an encyclopedia editor, so they aren’t “stupid” dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/65 "2008-07-18T22:31:45Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] The trouble with the phrase “deaf and dumb” is that the word “dumb” while it originally mean “can’t talk” now means “stupid” in American english. [/QUOTE] The OP is from England. It has been pointed out in this thread that the word is not used in such a manner over there. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/66 "2008-07-18T22:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] The OP is from England. It has been pointed out in this thread that the word is not used in such a manner over there. [/QUOTE] But…the OP herself has the objection. So there are people there who use or interpret the word in that manner. My surprise was more that she was the first to complain in 22 years (although, frankly, I doubt that the guy who answered the phone can claim to know that). I agree with those who think that perhaps the OP should guide them towards an acceptable outcome. Thanks for the awesome post, **Lemur.** ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/67 "2008-07-18T23:18:47Z")
Yes, dumb is also a synonym for stupid over here. But it still also means inability to speak. Wiktionary says the former meaning comes from the German and the latter from the Old Norse. It’s both a homonym (cp _mi-nute_ and _min-ute_) and a homophone (cp _cede_ and _seed_). It’s not the only one: _tick_ comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/68 "2008-07-18T23:45:19Z")
[QUOTE=lorene] I agree with those who think that perhaps the OP should guide them towards an acceptable outcome. [/QUOTE] What a sinister turn of phrase that is. ETA: Ooops sorry, shouldn’t have used “sinister”. Sorry, bit discriminatory. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/69 "2008-07-19T00:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] What a sinister turn of phrase that is. ETA: Ooops sorry, shouldn’t have used “sinister”. Sorry, bit discriminatory. :smack: [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I understand your meaning. Here’s what I meant…if she said to them, "Perhaps you were not aware that your use of the phrase ‘deaf and dumb’ is considered offensive by many in the deaf community. [I find it works best to assume no ill intent]. Now that I have brought this to you attention, I’d like to suggest the following course of action: 1. Change the phrasing in all cards printed from here out 2. Issue an apology to \ 3. Make an effort to review other cards in your games to ensure that similarly outdated language is not reflected in the materials…" Etc etc. I don’t think anyone has ever called me or my words sinister before. It does lend a certain air of mystery to me that no one in real life would really buy. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/70 "2008-07-19T02:36:20Z")
[QUOTE=lorene] I don’t think anyone has ever called me or my words sinister before. It does lend a certain air of mystery to me that no one in real life would really buy. [/QUOTE] Sinister is insulting to left handed people. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/71 "2008-07-19T03:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=lorene] I’m not sure I understand your meaning. [/QUOTE] The joke they were making was that the word “sinister” started out as a slur towards left-handed people. ETA: Damn, teaches me to preview. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/72 "2008-07-19T03:46:13Z")
I heard the phrase “deaf and dumb” (actually, I’m more familiar with “deaf, dumb, and blind” for some reason. Maybe I first heard it studying Hellen Keller.) growing up in the 80s. I can imagine how it wouldn’t have been seen as offensive in the 80s, but I’ve never heard of “deaf and dumb language.” As far as I know, "sign language was a common term in the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/73 "2008-07-19T04:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Francesca] Deaf people don’t play charades. It’s a bit easy when you’re fluent in sign language. [/QUOTE] Plus they get really pissed when you pantomime “sounds like”. Marc ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/74 "2008-07-19T12:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] Sinister is insulting to left handed people. [/QUOTE] I know that, but was not sure why my reply was a _sinister_ turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/75 "2008-07-19T12:29:56Z")
> [@](#): > > But…the OP herself has the objection. So there are people there who use or interpret the word in that manner. And? The OP has way too much time on her hands. I cannot even begin to imagine what would make me phone up a company and write a letter to them, both within 24hrs, over a twenty year old game. Jesus. Go read a book or something. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/76 "2008-07-19T13:03:42Z")
[QUOTE=Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party] And? [/quote] And so it’s not like she’s making up the meaning out of thin air. [QUOTE=Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party] The OP has way too much time on her hands. I cannot even begin to imagine what would make me phone up a company and write a letter to them, both within 24hrs, over a twenty year old game. Jesus. Go read a book or something. [/QUOTE] Look, I agree that the letter AND phone call in such a short time frame was overkill. But most people have causes that they care about and, in her case, it’s respectful treatment of deaf people. I can get with that because I work in the disability field. Other people might pull something else out to object to that **Francesca** might not think was a big deal. We don’t all have to have the same causes in order for those causes to be considered valid. IMO, there are 2 separate issues—whether she has a “right” to be offended in the first place (which some people seem to be trying to talk her out of) and whether she handled her attempt to get a resolution well. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/77 "2008-07-19T13:22:28Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Jesus Christ people. [/quote] Talking about offending people. > [@Lemur866](#): > > The trouble with the phrase “deaf and dumb” is that the word “dumb” while it originally mean “can’t talk” now means “stupid” in American english. So “deaf and dumb” implies that the person is stupid. And besides, “deaf and dumb” is silly, because plenty of deaf people are able to speak. Deafness usually doesn’t impair the vocal cords. There is no trouble with the phrase “deaf and dumb”, because it means “unable to hear or speak”, as opposed to “deaf” which means “unable to hear, not necessarily unable to speak”. There is no phrase that means “deaf and stupid”, regardless of what “dumb” might mean in isolation. (I use the phrase “dumb terminal” in all innocence, though you don’t often see them these days, but then, you wouldn’t ordinarily expect a computer terminal to speak.) And there you have it in black and white - do you want to inveigh against that because it might mean “African-American and white”? > [@Lemur866](#): > > And “deaf and dumb language” is stupid as well, because plenty of deaf people can’t sign, and plenty of hearing people can. And it’s not like there’s some newfangled confusing euphemism that you’re being pressured to use, since the alternative is “sign language”. Is “sign language” too confusing for you all? No, but that’s not to imply offence on the part of someone who says “deaf and dumb language” in the knowledge that the reader will find it perfectly clear. > [@Lemur866](#): > > As for the contention that "real deaf people aren’t offended by the term “deaf and dumb, so why are you”?, well, how many real deaf people do you know? It actually is offensive to lots and lots of deaf people. It’s usually inaccurate, and it implies that the “deaf and dumb” person is stupid. No it doesn’t. See above. See it again if you still haven’t got it. > [@Lemur866](#): > > Why wouldn’t it be offensive? If you ain’t got it yet, you’re probably not going to. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/78 "2008-07-19T13:23:43Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] . And it’s not like there’s some newfangled confusing euphemism that you’re being pressured to use, since the alternative is “sign language”. Is “sign language” too confusing for you all? … It actually is offensive to lots and lots of deaf people. It’s usually inaccurate, and it implies that the “deaf and dumb” person is stupid. Why wouldn’t it be offensive? [/QUOTE] All of that may be true, but none of it is the point. The point is, it is utterly ludicrous to expect a response to a complaint within _24 hours_. It is also not reasonable to expect any kind of positive response when you come off as incredibly combative and borderline-hysterical, because no one is going to take you seriously, even if your complaint has validity. ---
**Author:** ![bluecanary](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bluecanary/32/3614_2.png) [@bluecanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluecanary)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/79 "2008-07-19T14:25:27Z")
[QUOTE=lorene] IMO, there are 2 separate issues—whether she has a “right” to be offended in the first place (which some people seem to be trying to talk her out of) and whether she handled her attempt to get a resolution well. [/quote] You have a right to be offended. You don’t have a right not to be offended. Many people get the two confused :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/80 "2008-07-19T22:41:46Z")
[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed] (actually, I’m more familiar with “deaf, dumb, and blind” for some reason. Maybe I first heard it studying Hellen Keller.) [/QUOTE] Or maybe from The Who’s ‘Pinball Wizard’. That’s what I think of when I hear that phrase. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822.md?page=5)