# Would you be happy with this reponse to a complaint about "deaf and dumb". **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 17, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822 "2008-07-17T13:41:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/101 "2008-08-17T21:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Well, it’s been observed already in this thread that they don’t play charades as a rule because they’re _too darned good_ at it. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure why people (including the OP, who has experience with the Deaf) is saying Deaf people would tend to be really good at Charades. The rules in Charades say you are not allowed to say anything. When a Deaf person uses Sign Language, they are saying something. Hence a Deaf person playing Charades is not allowed to use Sign Language. And if they are not allowed to use Sign Language, I fail to see how they’re at any less of a disadvantage than I am when I play. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/102 "2008-08-18T11:59:56Z")
To be honest, I had no idea “Deaf and Dumb” is now considered offensive until I read this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/103 "2008-08-18T13:39:27Z")
The game “Apples to Apples” original version has a card with the word “Pentagon” on it and a joke about how easy it would be to target such a singularly shaped building for a terrorist attack. When we’re playing, we just remove the card. It’s in bad taste. The games manufacturer removed that card for future releases of that deck. (Now it’s kind of a sad collector’s item.) Of course, they didn’t have to be told it’s in bad taste. But if your hearing-impaired family members and friends are as offended as you are, perhaps they would like to send e-mails as well. They are the parties truly being insulted here, no? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/104 "2008-08-18T16:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The rules in Charades say you are not allowed to say anything. When a Deaf person uses Sign Language, they are saying something. Hence a Deaf person playing Charades is not allowed to use Sign Language. And if they are not allowed to use Sign Language, I fail to see how they’re at any less of a disadvantage than I am when I play. [/QUOTE] Well, it’s a joke. The joke is, the deaf person won’t be saying anything…they’ll be signing it…you know, they’ll be able to use signs, and it’s not cheating because they’re not using spoken words. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/105 "2008-08-18T18:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, it’s a joke. The joke is, the deaf person won’t be saying anything…they’ll be signing it…you know, they’ll be able to use signs, and it’s not cheating because they’re not using spoken words. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure why you thought I didn’t understand the joke. I explained why the joke’s not really funny because it presumes incorrectly (as you just did) that the rule in Charades is just not to say anything “out loud.” -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/106 "2008-08-18T22:08:04Z")
[QUOTE=lorene] Nonverbal does require additional discussion—do you mean they can’t make ANY sounds? Do you mean that they can’t speak or, as you’ve noted, they can but choose not to. [/QUOTE] Even more broadly, “verbal” encompasses anything having to do with words. So for a person to be truly nonverbal, he or she would have to meet each of the following criteria: 1. Unable to speak with the vocal cords, larynx, and related body parts 2. Unable to understand such communication 3. Unable to read the written (typed, printed, whatever) word 4. Unable to express thoughts by stringing together letters, words, and sentences that can subsequently be viewed and comprehended “Nonoral” would, more accurately than does “nonverbal”, describe the people sometimes referred to as “deaf mutes”. However, the word will never catch on because of the “so you’re saying they can’t perform cunnilingus or fellatio?” jokes that would inevitably follow. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/107 "2008-08-18T22:39:07Z")
If you want some kind of concrete action, alert the “deaf and dumb” community. Oops. I meant, alert the appropriate interest and advocacy groups groups for the population and let them have at the company. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/108 "2008-08-20T15:10:22Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I’m not sure why you thought I didn’t understand the joke. I explained why the joke’s not really funny because it presumes incorrectly (as you just did) that the rule in Charades is just not to say anything “out loud.” -FrL- [/QUOTE] The rule in Charades is not to talk. Deaf people can communicate without talking. They’re using sign language…they aren’t saying anything. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/109 "2008-08-20T15:33:35Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] They’re using sign language…they aren’t saying anything. [/QUOTE] The intention is Charades is not just that people not “say anything out loud” but rather that people not _communicate linguistically._ Perhaps this doesn’t occur to most people because most people don’t interact with deaf people that often. But what kind of stupid game would _allow_ one language but _disallow_ another language? Obviously, unless we intend Charades to be an incredibly stupidly designed game, we will realize that this can’t be the intention behind the rule “not to speak.” And to say that deaf people “aren’t saying anything” when they speak sign language frankly bespeaks a ridiculous ignorance about what sign language is and how it works. Just google it if you want to become uningoranticized. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/110 "2008-08-20T15:47:22Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The intention is Charades is not just that people not “say anything out loud” but rather that people not _communicate linguistically._ Perhaps this doesn’t occur to most people because most people don’t interact with deaf people that often. But what kind of stupid game would _allow_ one language but _disallow_ another language? Obviously, unless we intend Charades to be an incredibly stupidly designed game, we will realize that this can’t be the intention behind the rule “not to speak.” And to say that deaf people “aren’t saying anything” when they speak sign language frankly bespeaks a ridiculous ignorance about what sign language is and how it works. Just google it if you want to become uningoranticized. -FrL- [/QUOTE] It seems more likely that the “creators” of the game never gave the deaf community as much as a single thought, and never considered whether or or not sign language is “talking”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/111 "2008-08-20T17:32:18Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Obviously, unless we intend Charades to be an incredibly stupidly designed game, we will realize that this can’t be the intention behind the rule “not to speak.” [/quote] Which is why it’s a joke and not meant as a serious analysis of deaf people playing charades. > [@](#): > > And to say that deaf people “aren’t saying anything” when they speak sign language frankly bespeaks a ridiculous ignorance about what sign language is and how it works. Just google it if you want to become uningoranticized. I know what sign language is and how it works. I’m not claiming they aren’t communicating. But it’s non-verbal communication…they aren’t “saying” anything…they’re signing things. ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/112 "2008-08-20T18:24:48Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The rules in Charades say you are not allowed to say anything. When a Deaf person uses Sign Language, they are saying something. Hence a Deaf person playing Charades is not allowed to use Sign Language. And if they are not allowed to use Sign Language, I fail to see how they’re at any less of a disadvantage than I am when I play. [/QUOTE] An interesting question. I don’t know about British Sign Language, but in ASL you do more than just “wave your hands” when you communicate. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of subtle non-manual language markers in ASL - facial expressions, body posture, body orientation, tempo, etc. - that are commonly used by speaking people when they play charades. In ASL, you can change a statement to a question by the shape of your eyes or the tilt of your head. You can imply shifts in time by leaning forward or back. You can specify body parts by merely pointing to them. You can hold up four fingers to say “4”. And so on. Do you forbid a deaf person from using these parts of ASL during play, because it allows them to communicate linguistically? ---
**Author:** ![Barrels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@Barrels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrels)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/113 "2008-08-21T16:54:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lightray] Deaf people don’t know better than to use sign language in playing charades? :dubious: [/QUOTE] A large part of conveying meaning or emotion in Sign Language is basic charade type movements and facial expression. While the language is formed with the hands the meaning is expressed with the face or body postion. If you were to say I want to go out and learn Sign some of the first lessons would most likely be playing charades. The phrase “Deaf and Dumb” at the very least least is out of date, I agree that it’s offensive and should be taken out of the game. If they had a card telling some one to act out the “retard” from Rainman I’m certain they would have had a lot more calls. Both phrases are equally offensive in my book. BTW I am hearing, fluent in ASL. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822/114 "2008-08-21T20:07:10Z")
Spelling out big letters with your hands/arms or drawing them with your finger on the table would be outside of the rules in any Charades games I’ve played. It’s contrary to the spirit of the game, and functionally it’s no different then using ASL. This is a non-issue, IMO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-happy-with-this-reponse-to-a-complaint-about-deaf-and-dumb/456822.md?page=5)