# Would you be in favor of a religion taxed at 90%? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099 "2013-09-05T18:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/81 "2013-09-06T18:38:26Z")
Yup, and the IRS also says: To be tax-exempt under section 501©(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501©(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates. Which directly flies in the face of my post 23 which you conveniently ignored. But hey, you think the IRS can define words. Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/82 "2013-09-06T18:45:27Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Hmm, looks like my quoting got cut off and I didn’t get the other parts in: > > [Here’s a different instance re: Catholics:](http://www.arcc-catholic-rights.net/who_owns_the_church.htm) > [Or take a look at what’s going on with the Episcopals:](http://www.religionnews.com/2013/02/18/all-eyes-on-texas-s-c-church-property-fights/) > > And since \*\*Munch \*\*can’t wrap his head around what a “business” is, [let me help:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business) > So please explain, **Munch** , if you can, how a church is not a business. You keep making that claim and failing to show any proof. It’s fucking easy. None of that involves profit. I don’t know why in the world you think it does. You could also sue your grandmother for not giving you a fair share of her estate when she dies. That doesn’t make your grandmother a business. Owning shit doesn’t make you a business. There are a few churches that are a business in disguise, and, guess what? They get in a lot of fucking trouble when this is figured out. Benny Hinn was a recent example. The thing that’s even worse is, let’s say that you are right about those particular churches. You are advocating that all churches be treated as businesses. You aren’t arguing that the ones who are acting as businesses be treated as such. Do you know what it’s called when you extrapolate from a small group to the larger group? Discrimination. And, I’m sorry, but the second you advocate discrimination against religion, you lose me. The only reason why you are allowed to be an atheist is that concept. So, go ahead, establish it. Then we’ll establish that all atheists are also businesses. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/83 "2013-09-06T18:49:30Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Which directly flies in the face of my post 23 which you conveniently ignored. But hey, you think the IRS can define words. Good for you. You mean the one that calls Scientology a business instead of a religion? You think we disagree with that? That’s why even people like me who are strongly for freedom of religion are against Scientology. How is this logic supposed to work? Scientology says it is a religion. Scientology is really a business. Therefore all religions are really a business. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/84 "2013-09-06T18:55:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Yup, and the IRS also says: > To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates. > > Which directly flies in the face of my post 23 which you conveniently ignored. But hey, you think the IRS can define words. Good for you. Sorry, post 23 slipped through. I’ve quoted it below for reference. I have no interest in defending either Scientology or churches that appear, from at least that video, clearly violating their charter. I’m sure the reasoning is that the church’s board of directors has decided that the salary they have set for their pastor is appropriate. I’d hardly call that a standard example of the law at work, though. > [@stpauler](#): > > I would love to see you do this work of defense for Scientology or [this.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml8bQDnnkKk) Edit: This just goes back to miss elizabeth’s confusion between “some” and “many”. I have absolutely no qualms with stating that there are a number of churches out there running afoul of the law, and that the IRS should crack down on them. But \*some \*of the churches doing that doesn’t mean \*many \*of them are, or even constitute anything but a tiny fraction of the whole. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/85 "2013-09-06T18:57:04Z")
> [@](#): > > A business (also known as enterprise or firm) is an organization involved in the trade of goods, services, or both to consumers.[1] Businesses are predominant in capitalist economies, where most of them are privately owned and administered to provide service to customers for profit. Businesses may also be not-for-profit or state-owned. A business owned by multiple individuals may be referred to as a company, although that term also has a more precise meaning. This definition, which **stpauler** quoted from Wikipedia, is typical of why Wikipedia should never be treated as an authoritative source. Wikipedia is often wrong, and it’s certainly wrong in this case. A quick consultation with my friend Webster informs me that a business is “a profit-seeking enterprise or concern”. Moreover, this is obviously what people generally mean when they use the word ‘business’ in daily life. Profit-seeking is a necessary part of what makes a business a business, both in day-to-day speech and legally. Wikipedia is therefore wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/86 "2013-09-06T19:13:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > My wife is a pastor (ELCA) and when she gets her first call, her salary will be about $35,000. Any person with a comparable level of eduction–she did 8 years of college and grad school–could get far more money by going into almost any other field you would care to name. > > If there are any clergy who became clergy because of the money, they obviously constitute a tiny fraction of the total. Actually, from what I’ve read getting your phd or masters helps very little salary-wise in most fields. I doubt a philosophy or art history PhD grad starts any better than your wife will. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/87 "2013-09-06T19:21:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Actually, from what I’ve read getting your phd or masters helps very little salary-wise in most fields. I doubt a philosophy or art history PhD grad starts any better than your wife will. Well, the average starting salary for undergrads this year was about $44,500. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/88 "2013-09-06T21:14:15Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > OH MY FUCKING GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN? Do you understand this is a hypothetical situation? No, you obviously don’t. You must be super fun to watch movies with, holy hell. > > If a donor provides funds for a university gym, I do not think that should be tax deductible. For a community center, yes, because everyone gets to use it. For a church, no. > > And I think donating expensive paintings to decorate some offices of an organization shouldn’t be tax-deductible either. If you are donating it to be auctioned, and the money from the auction is going to basic overhead and charity, then it should be. > > p.s. there’s no underscore in my name. You need to dial back your posts in here majorly. This is not the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/89 "2013-09-06T21:50:30Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Well, the average starting salary for undergrads this year was about $44,500. On average, undergrad degrees are more useful than philosophy, art history or theology undergrad degrees. 😛 But regardless, priests/pastors often have supplements to their salary- housing allowances and pay specific to extra duties they perform. For the heck of it, I looked up average salaries as ITR suggested. [USA average is $55,000 with many Synods over 60, some approaching 70 thousand](http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Vocation/Rostered-Leadership/Leadership-Support/Salary-Benefits.aspx). [Starting average](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html) for Philosophy- $39,900.00, Art History $35,800.00 , Religion $34,100.00 ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/90 "2013-09-06T22:30:46Z")
Few churches have any substantial income other than freely-given contributions, and most have nothing that could be considered profits. If gifts to the church can be taxed at 90%, then all gifts should be. The $10 you give to your nephew for his birthday ought to be taxed $9 for the government. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/91 "2013-09-06T22:52:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > On average, undergrad degrees are more useful than philosophy, art history or theology undergrad degrees. 😛 But regardless, priests/pastors often have supplements to their salary- housing allowances and pay specific to extra duties they perform. For the heck of it, I looked up average salaries as ITR suggested. [USA average is $55,000 with many Synods over 60, some approaching 70 thousand](http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Vocation/Rostered-Leadership/Leadership-Support/Salary-Benefits.aspx). > > [Starting average](http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html) for Philosophy- $39,900.00, Art History $35,800.00 , Religion $34,100.00 I really don’t think this refutes the point he was trying to make with his post. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099/92 "2013-09-06T23:02:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Any club can get a free pass as long as they are non-profit. Now that you’ve been informed that you are completely wrong in your assumptions does that change your opinion on the subject at hand? Any club can become tax exempt – well if it is, that is. But any club cannot get a tax exemption from paying property tax. So the golf club where on Sunday morning I go commune with nature (or might if I actually played golf) must pay property tax but the church does not. What is exempt from property tax is a not-for-profit organization that has specific purposes: charitable, educational, hospital, religious. (at least in NY other places may vary) How exactly can a government define what is and what is not “religious” without violating the Constitution? Why is sitting on a hard bench and looking through stained glass windows religious, but playing billiards in a private club not religious? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-in-favor-of-a-religion-taxed-at-90/668099.md?page=4)