# Would you be weirded out if a boy joined your daughter's Girl Scout troop? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913 "2011-10-26T22:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/101 "2011-10-31T12:47:18Z")
> [@evensven](#): > > Think about historically black colleges, for example. They can provide a lot of important things for the African-American people who attend them. However, every historically black college has a handful of non-black people attending. It doesn’t ruin the effect at all. In fact, it almost certainly strengthens the colleges in question. Race and gender are not really analogous in the context we are discussing. Regardless, you are either unaware, or are glossing over the fact that the vast majority of HBCUs were not created with the goal of segregation, but as a response to it. > [@evensven](#): > > Standard procedure for children exhibiting gender variance is to, as much as possible, give them the freedom to express their gender as they see fit, without pressure or disapproval. This is statistically correlated with the best outcomes later in life. Which is a fine and dandy until you expect considerations to be made by other people. His parents could and should do whatever they want to make him feel comfortable, but other people should not feel particularly compelled to cater to someone based on what may or may not be a legitimate disorder in any particular individual. More generally, I am bothered by this idea that you cannot tell anyone anything that will hurt their feelings for fear that it might damage their psyche or result in “worse outcomes”. I don’t think its particularly injurious or insensitive to tell this kid the girls scouts are not for him because he is not (colloquially speaking) a girl. We seem to have this idea now as a society that discrimination is always a bad thing, and that children are far more sophisticated and important than they really are. > [@evensven](#): > > And what are the “variety of valid reasons” a person might object. A seven year old is not going to rape the girls. He is not going to be oggling them. He may or may not be disruptive, but there is no reason to believe his penis automatically makes him more disruptive than any other prospective member, and he should be judged by his actual behavior rather than some off-the-cuff supposition. Everything you have said can apply to a normal boy as well. Hell, they even apply to the vast majority of adults as well. The question, which you ducked before, is why not accept everyone? If it’s only a matter of foreseeable negative consequences, why not accept anyone regardless of age, ability, or gender to the GSA on a case by case basis? The answer is largely, because it’s the GIRL scouts. People for whatever reason made the decision to create an organization for a subset of people. Not speaking for the GSA in particular, but some of those valid reasons include encouraging fraternity, dealing with gender-specific issues, safety, etc. I have a few questions for you? 1. Should the GSA accept any boy who wants to join? Why or why not? 2. If there is a 50 year old developmentally disabled woman with the mentality and disposition of a 7 year old, should she be able to join the GSA? > [@evensven](#): > > All kinds of dumb stuff in is the newspaper. Remember when gay scoutmasters were all going to destroy America? Remember how gay marriage is degrading the institution itself? And how gay servicemen are going to cause us to lose in Afghanistan or something? Newspapers love scare stories about people whose sexuality we don’t “get.” Your question wasn’t whether it was a correct position, it was whether people care. People, for better or worse, care about all the things mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/102 "2011-10-31T15:02:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I transitioned as an adult. But this reminds me of attending my sister’s Girl Scout meetings. I never applied to join (this was back in the 1960s), but I read the GS manual and took part in activities to the extent that it was feasible. It’s one of the few early pleasant memories from a lifetime of mostly pain. **Moxmaiden** and I have three girls in Girl Scouts and it’s a fantastic organization. Between them we’ve got about 21 years of Girl Scouting experience so far, and they’re about halfway through in aggregate. We both fully expect to be involved with GS for most of our lives, it’s just that good an experience. There is nothing in their bylaws which prevents boys from joining or non-religious people from joining. In fact it’s part of the reason our girls are Scouts but our boys are Navigators. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![ProbablyProcrastinating](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/57b2e6/32.png) [@ProbablyProcrastinating](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProbablyProcrastinating)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/103 "2011-10-31T17:30:41Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Because the post I was replying to was suggesting the mother was asking GS to create policy for this child. I was clarifying that the policy was already in place for transgender children in general. > > The thread was also debating whether this specific child was transgender. I didn’t want to add to the debate about whether this child was being pushed by the mother. Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying. Agree it doesn’t make sense to create another policy, unless it’s not a question of transgender. I think it’s tough though. After all, the child might be processing things other than gender identification at this point. It’s not fair to ask children to identify as transgender at that age. I know this contradicts what I wrote earlier. I changed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![katieann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b77776/32.png) [@katieann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katieann)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/104 "2011-10-31T21:37:22Z")
Just to clear up a few things I just called the boys scouts office in Grand Rapids, MI and was told that the boys scouts don’t allow female members who are tomboys or otherwise that all scouts must be male .They allow some female leaders but all members under 18 must be male.So it seem the girls scouts have different standards then the boys scouts.So if Bobby was a girl wanting to be a boy he would not be allowed to go to the boys scouts and I say i act like boy and want to join she would be told no.I remember having slumber parties as a kid.It was fun to get together with other girls and talk about boys and other girl things.Why doesn’t Bobby just join a co ed group like camp firer kids they do similar kinds of things and he can hang out with other girls there. The camp firer kids used to a group for girls only that allowed in boys then the boys took over and begin changing the name to campfire boys and girls placing the boy name first when it was a female group first.They changed the name to camp firer kids to keep things fair but lot of girls dropped out of the group feeling they were ripped off.Why does this mom want to embarrass her child and put him through this?Even if he does want to be a girl why embarrass him at 7 by bringing it out to the press. if he gonna cry because he was reject I can only image what people are saying now.Why put a 7 year old through that I mean come on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/105 "2011-10-31T23:43:05Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Would you be weirded out if a boy joined your daughter’s Girl Scout troop? More like :smack: “Why didn’t **I** ever think of that?!” ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/106 "2011-10-31T23:51:53Z")
> [@katieann](#): > > Just to clear up a few things I just called the boys scouts office in Grand Rapids, MI and was told that the boys scouts don’t allow female members who are tomboys or otherwise that all scouts must be male .They allow some female leaders but all members under 18 must be male.So it seem the girls scouts have different standards then the boys scouts.So if Bobby was a girl wanting to be a boy he would not be allowed to go to the boys scouts and I say i act like boy and want to join she would be told no.I remember having slumber parties as a kid.It was fun to get together with other girls and talk about boys and other girl things.Why doesn’t Bobby just join a co ed group like camp firer kids they do similar kinds of things and he can hang out with other girls there. The camp firer kids used to a group for girls only that allowed in boys then the boys took over and begin changing the name to campfire boys and girls placing the boy name first when it was a female group first.They changed the name to camp firer kids to keep things fair but lot of girls dropped out of the group feeling they were ripped off.Why does this mom want to embarrass her child and put him through this?Even if he does want to be a girl why embarrass him at 7 by bringing it out to the press. > > if he gonna cry because he was reject I can only image what people are saying now.Why put a 7 year old through that I mean come on. FYI - a girl can become a Venturer, the high adventure part of the BSA, at age 14 / out of 8th grade. A girl can also join the Explorers, another part of the BSA as well at that age. Those two groups last until age 21. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/107 "2011-11-01T00:04:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Yes, gender identity at a young age can be a transient and fluctuating thing. This is one reason, for example, why nobody anywhere advocates performing sexual reassignment surgery on small children. Appropriate interventions for small children, such as this, are completely reversable. If Bobby is living as this way, then I think he should be able to join GS. The contention was that his mother _did not say he was a transgender (ed?! this word is bothering me)._ Until after the story broke.``23d > [@](#): > > The thing is, you don’t have a neat, tidy solution either. You seem to think the “default” is forcing a child to live against their gender identity. I didn’t say for Bobby to dress only like a boy or do only ‘boy’ things. I do not think excluding Bobby from a group is forcing him to live as a boy, either. I also didn’t say that transgendered kids shouldn’t be allowed in GS. > [@](#): > > There is no reason to piegon hole anyone when they are that young, and it is actively harmful to try to force them to perform an identity they are not comfortable with. Note how it is the mother speaking for the child. How do we know she hasn’t been holding him up to this identity? > [@](#): > > A [Contemporary Pediactrics](http://www.imatyfa.org/permanent_files/to-the-beat-of-a-different-drummer-6-2007.pdf) article states: > [@](#): > > It does not recommend seeking therapy unless there is an obvious reason. To me, a 2 year old exhibiting that behavior is a cause for concern. And your one cite isn’t the end all be all. Never did I say a boy who dresses like a girl should be in ongoing lifetime therapy. But it should’ve been visited. From your own cite: > [@](#): > > Counseling the child Although working with parents is key, working with the child can be very important— > particularly when the child is a preadolescent or adolescent and when the parents are unable to support the > child sufficiently. You can state that there is more than one way of being a boy or a girl and that there is > nothing wrong with the way the child is, and you can acknowledge how hard it feels not to be understood. > Remarking that it is easier for adults to meet like-minded friends can instill hope for the future. > When to refer Most children will respond to parents’ acceptance and encouragement. Referral to a mental > health specialist is appropriate if the child is anxious, depressed, or angry, exhibits self-destructive behavior, > or experiences significant social isolation—especially if these problems do not improve with short-term > counseling. Children who are victims of bullying can benefit from therapeutic approaches that teach skills to > respond more effectively and provide strategies to reduce the impact. Children who are very shy or have > difficulty making friends may benefit from training to improve social skills and reduce social anxiety. > Before referral, make sure that the mental health clinician has the competencies to deal with these issues. > Some parents may need clarification that psychotherapy does not change sexual orientation or gender > identity. Therapists who are competent with other childhood issues do not necessarily have the background > to deal with gender variance. Therapists who advocate changing gender-variant behaviors should be > avoided. Ideally the therapist should focus on helping the child and family cope with intolerance and social > prejudice, not on the child’s behaviors, interests, and choice of playmates. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/108 "2011-11-01T00:10:08Z")
Also, from your cite: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Counseling the child > > Although working with parents is key, working with the child can be very important— > > particularly when the child is a preadolescent or adolescent and when the parents are unable to support the > > child sufficiently. You can state that there is more than one way of being a boy or a girl and that there is > > nothing wrong with the way the child is, and you can acknowledge how hard it feels not to be understood. > > Remarking that it is easier for adults to meet like-minded friends can instill hope for the future. > > > > When to refer > > Most children will respond to parents’ acceptance and encouragement. Referral to a mental > > health specialist is appropriate if the child is anxious, depressed, or angry, exhibits self-destructive behavior, > > or experiences significant social isolation—especially if these problems do not improve with short-term > > counseling. Children who are victims of bullying can benefit from therapeutic approaches that teach skills to > > respond more effectively and provide strategies to reduce the impact. Children who are very shy or have > > difficulty making friends may benefit from training to improve social skills and reduce social anxiety > > . > > Before referral, make sure that the mental health clinician has the competencies to deal with these issues. > > Some parents may need clarification that psychotherapy does not change sexual orientation or gender > > identity. Therapists who are competent with other childhood issues do not necessarily have the background > > to deal with gender variance. Therapists who advocate changing gender-variant behaviors should be > > avoided. Ideally the therapist should focus on helping the child and family cope with intolerance and social > > prejudice, not on the child’s behaviors, interests, and choice of playmates. So counseling is clearly the norm and often suggested. Damn IT. Double post - sorry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/109 "2011-11-01T17:07:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > More like :smack: “Why didn’t **I** ever think of that?!” What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/110 "2011-11-04T23:38:51Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > One of my good friend has a small child (5 years) who’s always said that she wants to grow up to be “a man” whenever she’s asked what she’d like to be. She’s not what I’d think of as tomboyish, but she’s utterly un-girly. She likes action games, loud toys, and is very rambunctious. > > None of us treat her as if she is “transgendered,” “gender confused” or anything like that. We say “we’ll see when you’re older,” and move on. If she DOES decide she’s actually male, when she develops a strong enough vocabulary to make that known, then that’s fine. If she’s just a loud, rambunctious kid who sees on TV that men get all the good toys (she’s repeatedly expressed she wants to be a policeman, a wrestler, and a fireman, always with an emphasis on the man-ness) and later decides women can do those thing too, that’s fine as well. If I had friends with a kid like this, I’d be cheerfully encouraging her just for my own amusement, giving her toy guns and such. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913/111 "2011-11-05T05:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > ``` > Originally Posted by **Feyrat** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14403329#post14403329) > One of my good friend has a small child (5 years) who's always said that she wants to grow up to be "a man" whenever she's asked what she'd like to be. She's not what I'd think of as tomboyish, but she's utterly un-girly. She likes action games, loud toys, and is very rambunctious. > > ``` > > None of us treat her as if she is “transgendered,” “gender confused” or anything like that. We say “we’ll see when you’re older,” and move on. If she DOES decide she’s actually male, when she develops a strong enough vocabulary to make that known, then that’s fine. If she’s just a loud, rambunctious kid who sees on TV that men get all the good toys (she’s repeatedly expressed she wants to be a policeman, a wrestler, and a fireman, always with an emphasis on the man-ness) and later decides women can do those thing too, that’s fine as well. I was a girl very much the same - I don’t have significant gender identity issues and no one ever suggested I did. FWIW I thought Girl Scouts was totally lame and would have loved to have been allowed to join Boy Scouts - they are very different organizations, so I think kids of either gender should be permitted to join either one. My boss has a small child - 5 years old. By the time he was around 3, he naturally gravitated only towards stereotypically feminine clothing, interests, activities, and ways of expressing himself. His parents are fairly open-minded people so they allowed him to pursue these interests, just as they allow his brother (who is masculine to an extreme). By age 4 he was becoming actively upset at having to wear/do any ‘boy stuff’ at all. He only wanted to wear the most overtly feminine clothes he was permitted to leave the house in. He asked his parents to grow his hair longer and cried for hours every time it was cut (they kept it longer but gender-neutral). He told his mother that God meant for him to be born as a girl. As he turned 5 it continued to intensify. He asked his parents why he had to be a boy, and said it hurt his feelings when people called him a boy. He would cry and say he was ‘ugly’ when in boys clothes. He was having problems at pre-school due to, among other things, telling other children he was in fact a girl. At this point they decided the ‘phase’ was affecting all of their lives so seriously that they needed outside help - so they took him to a top-tier psychiatrist specializing in children with gender identity issues. After some sessions (which he adored), she said she felt his case was clear-cut enough that transitioning him now would be understandable. His parents spent a few weeks talking with him about what he wanted, and based on his strong desire to be a girl in every way, decided to go through with it. Let him chose a new name (he went with something very close to his male name) and switched pronouns. The first thing she wanted was to pierce her ears and barrettes. She’ll enroll in kindergarten as a girl. She just started ballet. She is growing her hair ‘as long as Rapunzel’ and delights in wearing dresses every day (before she wasn’t allowed to outside the house). I’ve never seen this child happier than she is now - she’s glowing. She says she wants to be a doctor when she grows up, just like her psychiatrist. Anyway I’ve know the parents in this situation since the kid was a year old, and they are only going through with this because the alternative is punishing and fighting their child every day by forcing her to dress like, look like, and be a person she seems to feel at the core of her being that she is not. It’s heartbreaking for them every day to face judgment and ugliness from other people and to know what a long hard road their baby has ahead of her, whether or not s/he ‘grows out of’ wanting to be a girl or not (which they are open to - they just want her to be happy). I find it really hard to believe that even the most insane parent would ‘encourage’ their child to experiment with changing their gender. I also find it hard to believe that one could _succeed_ at significantly altering someone’s gender identity/presentation by anything rightfully termed ‘encouragement’. In high school I was friends with two trans people, one who fully transitioned at 18 (F to M) and one in her early 20s (M to F). Both knew they were born in the wrong body in very early childhood. Neither had supportive families, and were forced to suppress and deal with their gender issues essentially alone and with lots of punishment, and both were lucky to make it through alive. I’m really glad my bosses child isn’t going to have to go through that - whether she ends up a legal woman in adulthood or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-be-weirded-out-if-a-boy-joined-your-daughters-girl-scout-troop/600913.md?page=5)