# Would You Betray Your Nation For Personal Reasons **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590 "2010-06-02T02:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/1 "2010-06-02T02:14:19Z")
Would you betray your nation’s secrets for a friend or lover? Some variables: 1. A national secret that is extremely valuable and would be devestating if revealed to an enemy. 2. A national secret not as vital but still will cause problems for you country 3. A minor national secret that will only create a lot of controversy and talking And if the person was: 1. A lover 2. A close friend 3. A distant friend 4. An acquaintance In all cases I would say no as my loyalty to the nation outweighs any loyalty to a person. In rough order my loyalty scale: God\>Humanity\>Nation\>Ideology\>Family\>Friends\>Organization ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/2 "2010-06-02T02:15:10Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/3 "2010-06-02T02:18:13Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Yes. Elaborate please. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/4 "2010-06-02T02:18:55Z")
No. Never. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/5 "2010-06-02T02:21:26Z")
Hell, I’d betray my nation for a stick of chewing gum. And I don’t even chew gum! ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/6 "2010-06-02T02:23:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Elaborate please. A close friend or lover is more important to me than making sure some political official doesn’t get egg on his or her face. If somehow exposing a minor secret would be to our benefit at the expense of some controversy, then I would consider it, depending on what it is. ---
**Author:** ![rolandgunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@rolandgunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rolandgunslinger)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/7 "2010-06-02T02:25:08Z")
Never. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/8 "2010-06-02T02:25:36Z")
Imagine you’re a southerner in 1863 and your nation is the Confederacy, or that you’re a Loyalist in 1779 and your nation is the United States, or a German in 1943. In all of those cases I can see a case where I would. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/9 "2010-06-02T02:26:42Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > A close friend or lover is more important to me than making sure some political official doesn’t get egg on his or her face. If somehow exposing a minor secret would be to our benefit at the expense of some controversy, then I would consider it, depending on what it is. Yeah, when you put it that way, I’d need some clarification on “minor secret causing embarassment” too. I’d die before I’d be an Aldrich Ames or Robert Hanssen, but exposing a Watergate isn’t really “betraying your country.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/10 "2010-06-02T02:29:15Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > A close friend or lover is more important to me than making sure some political official doesn’t get egg on his or her face. If somehow exposing a minor secret would be to our benefit at the expense of some controversy, then I would consider it, depending on what it is. What if the politician would have created beneficial policies that would improve the nation in the long run? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/11 "2010-06-02T02:29:38Z")
Um, yeah, sure, I could totally “betray my nation” if a compelling situation arose. I only care about my nation to the extent that it contains people I care about. If, for some reason, it should turn out that, weighing all the benefits and damage which would be done to various people who I care about to various degrees (including complete strangers, whom I do care about to some degree, and also not limited to just the citizens of my own country), “betraying the nation” seems the way to go, then, well, it’s the way to go. What do I care about the figurative damage to a social construct beyond the effects already factored into said calculation? That having been said, such situations seem never to arise for me… convenient, that way. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/12 "2010-06-02T02:30:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Would you betray your nation’s secrets for a friend or lover? Some variables: > > 1. A national secret that is extremely valuable and would be devestating if revealed to an enemy. > 2. A national secret not as vital but still will cause problems for you country > 3. A minor national secret that will only create a lot of controversy and talking > > And if the person was: > > 1. A lover > 2. A close friend > 3. A distant friend > 4. An acquaintance > > In all cases I would say no as my loyalty to the nation outweighs any loyalty to a person. In rough order my loyalty scale: > > God\>Humanity\>Nation\>Ideology\>Family\>Friends\>Organization Zeus, but you’re young. I wouldn’t betray the nation in any way that would cause massive loss of innocent life. In fact, change massive to _any person other than me_. So I’m not gonna help any 24esque conspiracy destroy LA. But to save my wife’s life, I’d be willing to cause the US any amount of embarrassment. And I wouldn’t give a good goddamn about my any freaking ideology. To put _ideology_ over _human life_ is corrupt, stupid, naive, and/or evil. As for God: let’s stipulate that She exists. Hell, I’ll even stipulate that She exists and is benevolent and omnipotent and omniscient and all that crap. Why do I need to protect her? She’s omniscient, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/13 "2010-06-02T02:35:23Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What if the politician would have created beneficial policies that would improve the nation in the long run? Oh, good grief. So what? Is this politician the fucking Messiah? Because most likely she’s not the only person who can create these beneficial policies. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/14 "2010-06-02T02:36:37Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What if the politician would have created beneficial policies that would improve the nation in the long run? My loyalty lies with my loved ones first. As long as protecting them does not do exponentially worse harm to me or others, I will do what I can to assist or protect them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/15 "2010-06-02T02:37:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Zeus, but you’re young. > > I wouldn’t betray the nation in any way that would cause massive loss of innocent life. In fact, change massive to _any person other than me_. So I’m not gonna help any 24esque conspiracy destroy LA. > > But to save my wife’s life, I’d be willing to cause the US any amount of embarrassment. And I wouldn’t give a good goddamn about my any freaking ideology. To put _ideology_ over _human life_ is corrupt, stupid, naive, and/or evil. Depends obviously. Of course I wouldn’t sacrifice a human life to get a minor tax bill passed but would I be willing to piss off a whole lot of people to get a major bill passed in Congress? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/16 "2010-06-02T02:41:10Z")
Curtis, what exactly would a betrayal of God involve? I’m assuming you not talking about having classified information that would do God harm because that seems like an unlikely scenario. I’ll even go on to say that most Christian views of God put God beyond the ability of humanity to harm. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/17 "2010-06-02T02:41:23Z")
I’m not sure what the friend or lover gets as a result of my betrayal. To live? To avoid a bad day? It would probably make a difference. The OP explains some options on the betrayal side, but nothing on the other side of the proposed dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/18 "2010-06-02T02:42:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Curtis, what exactly would a betrayal of God involve? It would involve turning against His Word and Message. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/19 "2010-06-02T02:44:52Z")
Ted Dibiase was right. Everybody has a price. Mine happens to be absurdly high when it comes to treason, but there is some number of dollars, tax free, with certain other conditions assured, that could buy the act. Let’s say 999 Gajillion Squared Dollars, in numbered Swiss Accounts, with debit card access, plus the following: 1. Free passage for myself, my friends and relatives to a sizeable country estate/compound in a suitably modern nation with no extradition treaties with the U.S. 2. Designation of said sizeable country estate/compound as an independent, sovereign state, answerable to no laws other than my own within the borders thereof. 3. Unlimited shipments of weapons/ammo of my choosing. 4. Unlimited food of my choosing delivered to the gates. 5. Unlimited medical care for all residents of my compound, to be performed on premises, without charge. 6. Free passage and transport to and from the gate of any persons I so designate, some of which are likely to be nubile and hedonistic ladies 7. Unlimited, fastest available internet. 8 ) Prompt delivery and installation of any goods I may purchase. 1. Really good cable/satellite TV, with access to all SEC and NFL football games, MLB for my dad, and movie channels for my mother. 2. Diplomatic Immunity for me and all persons I designate, in the unlikely event we ever leave my compound. 3. The right to designate a line of succession , or to incorporate, to ensure the perpetual existence of all above conditions. 4. The right to institute two additional conditions similar in scope/reach/effect to the above each month, just in case I forgot anything. ---
**Author:** ![rolandgunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@rolandgunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rolandgunslinger)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/20 "2010-06-02T02:51:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Ted Dibiase was right. Everybody has a price. Mine happens to be absurdly high when it comes to treason, but there is some number of dollars, tax free, with certain other conditions assured, that could buy the act. Let’s say 999 Gajillion Squared Dollars, in numbered Swiss Accounts, with debit card access, plus the following: > > 1. Free passage for myself, my friends and relatives to a sizeable country estate/compound in a suitably modern nation with no extradition treaties with the U.S. > > 2. Designation of said sizeable country estate/compound as an independent, sovereign state, answerable to no laws other than my own within the borders thereof. > > 3. Unlimited shipments of weapons/ammo of my choosing. > > 4. Unlimited food of my choosing delivered to the gates. > > 5. Unlimited medical care for all residents of my compound, to be performed on premises, without charge. > > 6. Free passage and transport to and from the gate of any persons I so designate, some of which are likely to be nubile and hedonistic ladies > > 7. Unlimited, fastest available internet. > > 8 ) Prompt delivery and installation of any goods I may purchase. > > 1. Really good cable/satellite TV, with access to all SEC and NFL football games, MLB for my dad, and movie channels for my mother. > > 2. Diplomatic Immunity for me and all persons I designate, in the unlikely event we ever leave my compound. > > 3. The right to designate a line of succession , or to incorporate, to ensure the perpetual existence of all above conditions. > > 4. The right to institute two additional conditions similar in scope/reach/effect to the above each month, just in case I forgot anything. You left out hookers and coke. 🆒 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590.md?page=2)