# Would You Betray Your Nation For Personal Reasons **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590 "2010-06-02T02:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/21 "2010-06-02T02:54:49Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > You left out hookers and coke. 🆒 _Ahem_ See Conditions 6 and 8. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/22 "2010-06-02T03:20:18Z")
> [@](#): > > It would involve turning against His Word and Message. So more of a personal renunciation of your religious beliefs. Now you put God ahead of Nation and Nation ahead of Family. Are you saying that if you had to make a choice between renouncing Jesus and betraying a major American secret, you would choose to betray America? And if you had to choose between somebody killing a family member and betraying a major American secret, you would choose to let them kill the family member? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/23 "2010-06-02T05:01:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So more of a personal renunciation of your religious beliefs. > > Now you put God ahead of Nation and Nation ahead of Family. Are you saying that if you had to make a choice between renouncing Jesus and betraying a major American secret, you would choose to betray America? And if you had to choose between somebody killing a family member and betraying a major American secret, you would choose to let them kill the family member? Obviously you don’t know Curtis. His beliefs are not his beliefs, they are God’s beliefs. I betray the God I learned about in childhood every single day. Sometimes twice a day, but usually I have to wait at least 4 hours in between. It’s very difficult for me to conceive a situation where I would protect the country more than a loved one, other than one that would involve significant loss of life. Passing some legislation?? If it can’t pass on its own merits, it shouldn’t pass because someone is keeping secrets about it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/24 "2010-06-02T05:10:53Z")
You guys are contributing to his experiment again. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/25 "2010-06-02T05:22:36Z")
People mean more to me than things, or nations. I’m immune to all this patriotism crap. I would betray anything to a lover or close friend. The other 2, depends on what the point is ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/26 "2010-06-02T05:45:53Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > You guys are contributing to his experiment again. How many has has he done so far? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/27 "2010-06-02T05:52:42Z")
Just about every single thread he started. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/28 "2010-06-02T05:53:49Z")
**Curtis** , would your priorities require that you refuse to kill another human being in combat? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/29 "2010-06-02T05:55:49Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Curtis** , would your priorities require that you refuse to kill another human being in combat? From his list of priorities, I would think that Curtis would kill anyone, at least among foreigners, if ordered to by a superior officer. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/30 "2010-06-02T06:20:39Z")
My country can’t really be hurt by any betrayal, so it’s not that egregious of an act. I’d sell out whatever I happened to know if my wife and kids were on the line, and I wouldn’t lose a minute’s sleep over it. It’s not like anyone’s actually going to be able to crush the USA, but even if they could, my duties and loyalties to my family exceed that of any allegiance to a piece of dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/31 "2010-06-02T06:33:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > God\>Humanity\>Nation\>Ideology\>Family\>Friends\>Organization Interesting. You know when people say they put God before anything else (family, country, etc.), what they really mean is that they put _themselves_ ahead of everything else, because God cannot be harmed and needs no protection. God cannot be injured by “betrayal” or even be betrayed at all, since that would imply a breech of trust, and you can’t breech trust with an omniscient being. Such a being would already know about your impending (however harmless) little betrayal, and so would never trust you in the first place. God can also derive no benefit from human loyalty, so really, there’s no reason at all to prioritize God above anything else. What people are really prioritizing is their own presumed invitation to the afterlife party. They’re saying that going to Heaven is more important to them than their spouse, their children, their countries, etc. It’s fine if that’s how you want to prioritize things, but call it what it is – you’re putting your own deisre for Heaven first. You’re not putting God first. The idea of putting God first is not even logically sensible since God can neither be benefitted nor hamed by human action. Even if he could be, then what kind of an asshole God would demand subservience to him over loyalty to one’s own loved ones and fellow humans? Is the Heaven bribe really that enticing? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/32 "2010-06-02T07:01:32Z")
I have little love for this country, so my threshold for “betraying” it is low. The quotes are because it’s not much of a betrayal when you don’t even pretend to be loyal in the first place. I wouldn’t do anything that would literally destroy the population of the country; but I’d be perfectly happy to see it permanently drastically weakened, or split into fragments. At least then it wouldn’t be in a position to play at imperialism. As for embarrassing national secrets; I’d hand those out to the world on general principles. In fact I’d do that with the majority of secrets probably. I think that there’s a lot more sleaze and evil being covered by secrecy than there are matters of national security. ---
**Author:** ![Panurge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@Panurge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panurge)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/33 "2010-06-02T08:03:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > […] > As for embarrassing national secrets; I’d hand those out to the world on general principles. In fact I’d do that with the majority of secrets probably. I think that there’s a lot more sleaze and evil being covered by secrecy than there are matters of national security. Amen. Also: Putting a nation, deity, moral principle etc. above all else seems inherently dangerous (and creepy) to me. Blind adherence to any ideology is - at the most extreme level - basically a carte blanche to commiting any atrocity imaginable. Some of the most henious acts committed by man have been absolutely justifiable in the minds of the perpetrators who could simply point upwards and say “God/my Nation/Profit demanded that I acted as I did.” Sorry, **Curtis** but that just creeps me out. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/34 "2010-06-02T08:11:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > God\>Humanity\>Nation\>Ideology\>Family\>Friends\>Organization Here’s my list: My Penis \> …hmm, can’t think of anything else. Hmm, any reason why you need to rank loyalties? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/35 "2010-06-02T08:27:49Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It would involve turning against His Word and Message. Which is to be found…let me guess! Is it in The Bible, by any chance? As to the OP’s title, my answer is Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/36 "2010-06-02T12:23:00Z")
I’m not fighting the hypothetical, exactly, but I’m trying to gather more information. So I’m to assume in scenario #1 that I have knowledge of some classified or otherwise secret event. Like, I have highest clearance through the government or I’m a reporter and stumbled upon the scoop of the century? Bigger than the Pentagon Papers? I’m also to assume that if I were to tell even my wife about this secret, it would be revealed to “the enemy” and would be devastating to the country? I guess in that case, my wife is working with the enemy and I knew of this ahead of time. So for some reason I guess I’m cool with that and my answer would have to be “yes” because I’ve probably done quite a bit to aid the enemy already. I’d probably still have a long talk with my wife as to why the heck she’s a sleeper agent and this revelation may cause significant issues for me at work (and how in the heck did I pass the background check?). if I’m a reporter, I may as well just go ahead and publish the story and nab my Pulitzer. And why not? I’m already literally sleeping with the enemy. How much worse can it get? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/37 "2010-06-02T12:42:51Z")
Not for any of the people listed in the OP. For my child, though, yes, I’d likely give up national secrets. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/38 "2010-06-02T14:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Even if he could be, then what kind of an asshole God would demand subservience to him over loyalty to one’s own loved ones and fellow humans? Is the Heaven bribe really that enticing? God said to Curtis LeMay kill me a son Curt said God you must be putting me on God said Curt, Curt said what? God said you can do what you want Curt but The next time you see me coming you better run Curt said where to you want this killing to be God said out on the SDMB ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/39 "2010-06-02T14:32:55Z")
In a muh-fuckin’ _heartbeat_. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/40 "2010-06-02T14:43:45Z")
We are a Kingdom of Three. My family is my first loyalty, and as long as this “betrayal” does not entail massive loss of life at the expense of saving my husband or child, I’d do it so fast I’d leave people spinning. I am an atheist, so I don’t care about any gods, and I believe in the protection and care of the environment in which I live. I respect the laws because they are mostly in place to protect us all from each other. I owe no loyalty to a stretch of dirt, people, even the environment are more important to me. My nationality is an accident of birth, and reflects nothing about me. > [@Panurge](#): > > Also: Putting a nation, deity, moral principle etc. above all else seems inherently dangerous (and creepy) to me. Blind adherence to any ideology is - at the most extreme level - basically a carte blanche to commiting any atrocity imaginable. Some of the most henious acts committed by man have been absolutely justifiable in the minds of the perpetrators who could simply point upwards and say “God/my Nation/Profit demanded that I acted as I did.” Sorry, **Curtis** but that just creeps me out. Seconded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590.md?page=3)