# Would You Betray Your Nation For Personal Reasons **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590 "2010-06-02T02:14:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/41 "2010-06-02T14:46:37Z")
Like most people, (not having drunk the fundy Christian koolaid, grey cells still intact), I don’t live in a world of absolutes. The only reasonable answer to your silly OP, in my opinion, is ‘it depends’. Given a choice between living in a Christian theocracy and betraying my country, I’d betray my country in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/42 "2010-06-02T14:52:02Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Seconded. Thirded. Unless my giving information would somehow result in a massive (or maybe not-so massive) loss of life, I put my friends and family above pretty much anything, including my nation. Even if it’s contradictory, I do consider myself a patriot. … though if I get some horrible disease I’m moving to Canada. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/43 "2010-06-02T15:05:05Z")
I have to go with “it depends,” too. The OP is way too vague to possibly give a definitive answer. I have no particular loyalty to my nation (accident of birth and all that), but I certainly wouldn’t be giving out governmental secrets at a drop of a hat, either. If I were entrusted to these secrets to begin with, I would have a difficult time betraying _myself_ and _my_ word–it’s not so much a matter of national loyalty. Second, if betraying these secrets will cause many innocent people to be harmed, no, I would not divulge them. It’s rather unlikely that I would betray these secrets, but it’s not because of any particular love of nation. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/44 "2010-06-02T15:23:57Z")
My nation (the US of A, hell yeah!) is here to serve me and 300 million other people, not the other way around. That said, if I agreed to preserve a piece of information (as I have) or to not take certain actions (as I also have) then that is what I agreed to. 'nuff said. If my nation decided to break our agreement by, say, trying to force me to betray my wife or child then our agreement is no longer valid because they (it?) have broken their agreement with me. Of course, it is possible to imagine scenarios where I might choose to give up a loved one to save my country but my country, if it wants my loyalty, better be able to demonstrate that it’s working its ass off to make sure those scenarios don’t really come about. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de0a6/32.png) [@Electric\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Sky)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/45 "2010-06-02T15:53:51Z")
I’m a double expatriate (I live neither in the nation of my birth nor in the nation I was raised), so any national loyalties I have are perhaps a bit wobbly. I do love my adopted nation, though, and wouldn’t screw it over for anything less than a very compelling reason–which would include saving my friends and family from danger. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/46 "2010-06-02T16:02:21Z")
If I was 100% positive that I wouldn’t get caught, maybe. Otherwise I’d be too chicken. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/47 "2010-06-02T16:15:41Z")
I’ve got my price. Email address is in my profile. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/48 "2010-06-02T19:42:05Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Thirded. > > Unless my giving information would somehow result in a massive (or maybe not-so massive) loss of life, I put my friends and family above pretty much anything, including my nation. Even if it’s contradictory, I do consider myself a patriot. > > … though if I get some horrible disease I’m moving to Canada. Ew! Keep your horrible diseases in your own country! ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/49 "2010-06-02T19:58:08Z")
Another vote for “it depends on the situation”. Ultimately, I’d have to use my brains and moral sense, such as they are, to try to make the best decision I can, which would probably be the one that I hoped would solve the most problems. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/50 "2010-06-02T20:00:53Z")
My first loyalty is to the EAC and then to my wife and then to the rest of my family. When I was entrusted with state secrets (and believe it or not I was once so trusted), then my allegiance was undivided ABOUT those secrets. I did not share them with anyone else, but if I had been captured and told that if I did not give up my secrets that my family would be killed, I would have rolled over in a fucking heartbeat. The US Navy did not ever expect me to withstand torture or threats in order to secure crypto secrets. That is why I was not allowed to leave base while the codes I knew were in play. Remember, y’all, the folks who actually handle state secrets do so considerably better than the folks who play them on TV. We should all be pleased that this is true. Well, everyone who wants the US Navy to be able to communicate using encryption, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/51 "2010-06-02T21:06:38Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > My first loyalty is to the EAC and then to my wife and then to the rest of my family. What is the EAC? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/52 "2010-06-02T21:16:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > God\>Humanity\>Nation\>Ideology\>Family\>Friends\>Organization To my eye, you’ve got God on there twice, you just called Him Ideology the second time. And it amuses me that you don’t seem to think that a Nation is an Organization. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/53 "2010-06-02T21:27:16Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > … though if I get some horrible disease I’m moving to Canada. If you weren’t already a citizen or have some kind of landed immigrant status, your horrible disease might make you “medically inadmissible”, so you wouldn’t be able to move to Canada permanently. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/54 "2010-06-02T21:33:17Z")
As for the OP, it depends. If it was “Give us the code so we can turn off the force field and nuke your country from orbit or else we’ll kill your wife” I’d likely make the sacrifice (then probably take my own life). But if my country suddenly decided to adopt some heinous plan, in Final Solution style, I would betray my own country in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/55 "2010-06-02T21:38:42Z")
I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/56 "2010-06-02T21:49:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > What is the EAC? [East African Community](http://www.eac.int/)? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/57 "2010-06-02T23:34:41Z")
European Astronaut Centre? Electricty Authority of Cyprus? Evil Atheist Conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/58 "2010-06-03T00:03:22Z")
Easthampton Auto Club. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/59 "2010-06-03T00:38:09Z")
> [@](#): > > To my eye, you’ve got God on there twice, you just called Him Ideology the second time. And it amuses me that you don’t seem to think that a Nation is an Organization. I’m speculating that Curtis would say that his ideology is Conservatism - a political not a religious philosophy. And I agree with him if that’s the case - my loyalty to the United States transcends whatever political party is currently in office. And I’d go on to guess that an Organization would be something like the business that employs you. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590/60 "2010-06-03T13:36:28Z")
Insufficient info, **Curtis** , so I’m gonna have to go situational on it. OTOH: > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > 1. A minor national secret that will only create a lot of controversy and talking I feel no compulsion of duty to keep egg off of the government’s face, or to assuage the masses’ illusions. Nor do I, however, feel any compulsion of duty to be the one to throw the egg or break the illusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-betray-your-nation-for-personal-reasons/541590.md?page=4)