# Would you burn the flag in protest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558 "2005-06-23T17:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/101 "2005-06-26T20:13:58Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > Flag burners should be out in the open, which makes it much easier to keep tabs on these rabid lunatics šŸ™‚ Hang on - keep tabs on? You mean spy on the populace right? Letā€™s see how it sounds if you phrase it differently. > [@Someone else](#): > > Non-Christians should be out in the open, perhaps we could brand an ā€œhā€ on them, which makes it much easier to keep tabs on these rabid lunatics ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/102 "2005-06-26T20:21:48Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Letā€™s try to focus on the positive side of all this. Weā€™ve been hearing how ā€œthe terroristsā€ hate America because of our freedom. Maybe now that weā€™ve given up some of our freedom theyā€™ll respond by hating us a little less. Oh, crap, I think youā€™ve got it. No, seriously, Iā€™m glad the House passed this, 'cos now it goes to the Senate. I want a list of names of those who think a freaking heraldic symbol is uniquely sacred or that the First & Fourteenth Amendments go too far. I want their _names._ What some people seem to be missing is that there have been laws prohibiting flag descration in parts of the United States. Maybe it didnā€™t occur to people that this would be seen as political speech. But the Supreme Court struck these laws down about a dozen years ago. There is a fair argument to be made that certain types of physical activity as public protest are not protected as actual activity, though the expression of their sentiment through actual speech is protected, & their artistic representation in the press is protected. That is, I can advocate flag desecration, & someone else can advocate flag worship or the cockamamie theory that flags are the universal symbol of countries :rolleyes: , but I can still be prohibited from painting an upside-down flag on the steps of the local county courthouse, or burning a flag in a protest, for other reasons. Not because itā€™s the flag, mind. It would be just as illegal to paint a caricature of Mussolini on those steps, or to burn someone in effigy. What the proposed amendment does is concede the point to the Supreme Court decision that considers flag-burning protected speech. And it only protects an arbitrary heraldic emblem. By implication, it declares only this symbol protected, & makes of it an idol. All other symbols are therefore now, according to those who vote for this, fair game. Thatā€™s a big mistake. Instead of making the argument that freedom of speech does not extend to freedom of any fool expression anywhere, they chose one (rather silly) item to protect from desecration, therefore effectively declaring it Constitutionally protected to do all of the following: Burn in effigy anyone, anywhere, so long as I have a burn permit. Caricature in effigy anyone, pretty much unrestricted, & portray them however I wish. Physically. Display, in public, images of Lady Liberty taking it up the ass from the Washington Monument. Burn images of the Constitution. Smash, burn, smear with shit or what have you, so long as I donā€™t destroy anyone elseā€™s property or otherwise break another law, images of bald eagles, the Great Seal of the President of the United States, the Liberty Bell, the Bible, Jesus, the Ten Commandments, George Washington, the Capitol building, or Elvis. Burn crosses, KKK style. All constitutionally protected. Huh. But the flag? Oh, itā€™s an idol now. Well, like Mohammed, I believe in smashing false gods. How 'bout you? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/103 "2005-06-26T21:00:35Z")
As a direct response to the OP, no, I would never burn the flag, even though it is legal, and I oppose an amendment protecting it. The only protection the flag should need is the deep regard of the country it stands for. If the country doesnā€™t have it, the flag is meaningless. I love my country, served in itā€™s military, and I just couldnā€™t do it. I also think that most who do it are brainless yahoos, but our right to free speech protects even flag burners, assholes though they may be. ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/104 "2005-06-26T21:19:52Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Hang on - keep tabs on? You mean spy on the populace right? No, I mean keep tabs on, something which is currently happening with certain groups of anti-American, homophobic, racist flagdesecrators, such as this group for example, incase anybody desires a cite: [http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php](http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php) > [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Letā€™s see how it sounds if you phrase it differently. Sorry, I am not responsible for the rantings of your **Mr. Somebody**. If you take issue with what **Mr. Somebody** wrote, then I suggest you take it up with that poster. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/105 "2005-06-26T21:38:12Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > No, I mean keep tabs on, something which is currently happening with certain groups of anti-American, homophobic, racist flagdesecrators, such as this group for example, incase anybody desires a cite: > > [http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php](http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php) Iā€™m sorry, I might be slow today, but I donā€™t see in your link where ā€œkeeping tabsā€ is defined, or anything about who might be keeping tabs on this group, or how. Little help? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/106 "2005-06-26T21:40:23Z")
There is no help for a Magilla Gorilla for sale, Magilla Gorilla for sale. He is saying just what people thinks he is saying, but he (I gather from his writting) thinks of it as a good , non-hermful thing, while most anyone else thinks of it as a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/107 "2005-06-26T21:46:14Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Iā€™m sorry, I might be slow today, but I donā€™t see in your link where ā€œkeeping tabsā€ is defined, or anything about who might be keeping tabs on this group, or how. Little help? I am keeping tabs on them, as are many other Americans. They do live in the same city as me afterall, and just as I am aware of sexual predators and convicted pedophiles residing in my neighborhood, I am also well aware of anti-American, homophobic, racist flagdesecrators and Jihadis which happen to be in the area. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/108 "2005-06-26T21:58:37Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > I am keeping tabs on them, as are many other Americans. > > They do live in the same city as me afterall, and just as I am aware of sexual predators and convicted pedophiles residing in my neighborhood, I am also well aware of anti-American, homophobic, racist flagdesecrators and Jihadis which happen to be in the area. I know this is really another argument, but are you not suggesting that we ought to ā€˜keep tabs onā€™ people who do not agree with us? ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/109 "2005-06-26T22:12:33Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > I know this is really another argument, but are you not suggesting that we ought to ā€˜keep tabs onā€™ people who do not agree with us? Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting, especially for those who openly admire our enemies which have slaughtered thousands of Americans, and those who wish for our destruction in a time when we are at war. I support deportation proceedings and/or internment camps for those types. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/110 "2005-06-26T22:17:09Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > I know this is really another argument, but are you not suggesting that we ought to ā€˜keep tabs onā€™ people who do not agree with us? Sure he is, and heā€™s quite right to do so. While I do not agree with his seemingly blanket condemnation of anyone who would burn a flag in protest, I agree completely that itā€™s a citizenā€™s duty to watch and listen. I know it can be taken too far, and the idea of an ā€œinformant cultureā€ is abhorrent, but I see nothing wrong with monitoring the likes of, say, Westboro Baptist Church. I understand, **MG** , thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/111 "2005-06-26T22:17:12Z")
You see? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/112 "2005-06-26T22:20:09Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting, especially for those who openly admire our enemies which have slaughtered thousands of Americans, and those who wish for our destruction in a time when we are at war. I support deportation proceedings and/or internment camps for those types. Now that I cannot get behind. The Alien and Sedition Acts are a thing of the past, thank Kdapt. The idea of deporting or imprisoning people for exercise of their Constitutional rights disturbs and repulses me. ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/113 "2005-06-26T22:28:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Now that I cannot get behind. The Alien and Sedition Acts are a thing of the past, thank Kdapt. The idea of deporting or imprisoning people for exercise of their Constitutional rights disturbs and repulses me. Yes, people neednā€™t worry I suppose. Everything is far too ā€œPCā€ nowadays for anything like that to happen, unless something really, really bad happened in the future, then peopleā€™s opinions will change quickly perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/114 "2005-06-26T22:34:48Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > Yes, people neednā€™t worry I suppose. Everything is far too ā€œPCā€ nowadays for anything like that to happen, unless something really, really bad happened in the future, then peopleā€™s opinions will change quickly perhaps. Sure, we could decide to become a police state. And monkeys might well fly out of my ass. Iā€™m sorry you find the First Amendment to be ā€œPC.ā€ Whatever you mean by the term. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/115 "2005-06-26T22:36:29Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting, especially for those who openly admire our enemies which have slaughtered thousands of Americans, and those who wish for our destruction in a time when we are at war. I support deportation proceedings and/or internment camps for those types. [Stan Smith](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397306/combined), is that you? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/116 "2005-06-26T22:45:47Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > [Stan Smith](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0397306/combined), is that you? ā€œSorry Iā€™m late, I was getting a piping-hot cup of coffee. Itā€™s far too hot to drink, but luckily my leathery man-mouth can take it.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/117 "2005-06-26T22:53:44Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Iā€™m sorry you find the First Amendment to be ā€œPC.ā€ Whatever you mean by the term. I am fairly certain that the First Amendment was not meant as a document of self destruction back when the original wig wearing folks wrote it, and if somebody flatly states rhetoric which is threatening to the security of our country, then surely there must be something that could be done about that. Wait a second, I think there exists such a law already, which in this case would supersede the First Amendment: \*_Clause 1:_ Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/118 "2005-06-26T23:15:02Z")
> [@Magilla Gorilla](#): > > I am fairly certain that the First Amendment was not meant as a document of self destruction back when the original wig wearing folks wrote it, and if somebody flatly states rhetoric which is threatening to the security of our country, then surely there must be something that could be done about that. I do not believe that liberty is self-destructive. Itā€™s remotely possible that political speech can ā€œ[threaten] the security of our country,ā€ I suppose, but I think youā€™d have to show me specifics and then explain why the possible damage cause is worse than abandonment of liberty. As has been said, those who would give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither. And with all respect, Iā€™m not sure you or I are the ones to determine what constitutes treason. ---
**Author:** ![Magilla\_Gorilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Magilla\_Gorilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magilla_Gorilla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/119 "2005-06-26T23:40:51Z")
> [@andros](#): > > As has been said, those who would give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither. But you see, my liberties are just fine, so I wonā€™t be sacrificing anything. I wish to give up the liberties of those who side with the enemy. > [@andros](#): > > And with all respect, Iā€™m not sure you or I are the ones to determine what constitutes treason. Yes, you are correct, I am certainly no legal expert on the US constitution, nor do I claim to be one, but I do know how to read plain english, and if people take the First Amendment to mean what it says, then it would only be common sense to interpert the Treason law in a similiar fashion. **or in adhering to their Enemies** There are people inside the USA which definitely _adheres_ to our enemies. If theyā€™re not going to use that law, then perhaps the govt should just ditch it. Otherwise itā€™s just taking up unnecessary space. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558/120 "2005-06-27T00:06:39Z")
A couple of things: I do not recall a formal declaration of war. I may be wrong, please feel free to correct me if I am. I live in the US, am not a citizen, and wholeheartedly do _not_ support the actions undertaken of this administration. Would **MG** have me deported? how about cast into an internment camp? I know **MG** says that his/her freedoms are not under threat. Wanna bet? The removal of freedoms is a gradual process mate. First you take the ones ā€˜nobody usesā€™. Then you start on the others. Governments that do this have a habit of marginalising stuff like a free press - making it known that the free press is perhaps unpatriotic, maybe even treasonous. Then they get rid of it. Eventually everything that do not explicitly conform to policy is deemed dangerous and banned. If we allow the state to remove any freedoms, they will come for more. UnwrittenNocturne (who lived in a country immediately post military coup for a while) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-burn-the-flag-in-protest/309558.md?page=7)