I won’t cross. Its a matter of personal ethics and not up to negotiation.
Yeah but if the example of unionisation held up are the TFL ones then don’t blame employers when they do their best to avoid them at all costs.
And remember this gem in the run-up to the 2012 Olympics?
Seems like the worst advert for unions are the union leaders themselves. Luckily they didn’t follow through and the olympics were unaffected but statements like the one above don’t help the popularity of unions and sour public opinion against those disputes that should be supported.
I think the RMT give the good work of unions a bad name.
And sadly, I don’t work in an industry which is in any way protected by unions. And, consequently, our working hours and non-benefits are criminal.
I would and I have. Just because somebody is protesting something does not mean they are doing the right thing.
I’m reminded of a protest that occurred while I was in college. A construction union was standing outside of the research building that I used handing out flyers. Apparently they were complaining that they didn’t get paid enough for the work done. Note: past tense. The union signed a contract for an amount of pay, did the work, got paid the amount agreed on, and then protested anyway because they wanted more money after the fact. That just seemed like straight up extortion to me.
In this day and age, I assume that a union picketing does not have a good reason to be doing so, and will cross that picket line with no ding to my conscience, unless I am given good evidence otherwise.
I give you credit for being honest. On the Internet, most people seem to lack the self awareness to be able to admit that they wouldn’t necessarily live up to their ideals if they were actually put in a situation like this. Just like in the thread about if you’d take a bullet for your spouse just about everyone swore that of course they would (when you know that in real life it wouldn’t be that simple for most people).
After noticing the tollworkers I encountered in the Chicago area couldn’t be bothered to acknowledge me when I said hi to them as I pulled in, I was recently looking into just how much the tollworkers get paid to be completely indifferent to the people driving by, and one of the first things I found was this story about how some tollworkers allegedly unhappy about having to put in a full day of work took a photo of their boss (who had previously been fired twice but reinstated) sleeping on the job for revenge. Any surprise that they are union workers? I think that kind of stuff is why I tend to have a knee jerk negative reaction to unions, which seem to result in a culture of poor work ethic and laziness from my experience. Growing up in Detroit, I knew plenty of people in unions and some of them were pretty open about admitting they were getting well paid for an extremely easy job. Of course, as Detroit ended up finding out, that turned out to not be sustainable in the end.
So, needless to say, I would not necessarily consider a picket line to be sacred. I might honor it if I felt that the particular issue they were complaining about was a legitimate problem, but I would not jump to the conclusion that the workers were right and the company owners were wrong.
My kids both worked for a unioned supermarket when they were in high school. My son continued through university. For their union dues they got a starting wage that was $.05 per hour higher than minimum wage. It was actually one of the few jobs my daughter was happy about the terminations of non performing coworkers so there was no job protection for non performance. I’m sure the union was more effective with long term employees or closer to full time employees but from the basic workers in the store (probably 50% of the staff were students) there was absolutely no impact to their lives from the union.
The union did ensure that there was the ability to suspend your employment so when my son had a particularly intense semester planned he was able to take a 3 months sabbatical and return to work at the same seniority level he left. His union dues of course needed to be paid during his time off. When he graduated university after working for them for 5 years his final pay was up to $.25 over minimum wage.
I have been a union member my entire career as was my father (as was his father at a time when it could cost you your life) and grew up within a few miles of the site of the 1934 Auto-Lite strike. So, no. I would not cross any picket line, ever.
I don’t know what special information you are privy to, but I have seen no evidence that ‘management’ killed anyone. By your logic, are all deaths at union rail lines are caused by unions?
Also, corporations have given us an immense increase in the standard of living across the globe. Unions have given us many wonderful things, but they are not paragons of morality. I like to take a more nuanced view of labour disputes rather than 'management bad, union good".
Just to be clear about BART, it’s “management” consists of elected officials from the heavily Democratic Bay Area. That’s an interesting juxtaposition to your first paragraph. And polls show that residents in the Bay Area are heavily against the strike, even when you consider only Democratic residence (which is most of the populace around here anyway).
People are PISSED because they consider the demands to be unreasonable, and the union leadership has been playing games with the strike to make the average Joe suffer-- eg, not announcing whether they will strike or not until the wee hours of the morning, making it hard for people to plan their commutes.
There is very little sympathy for the BART strike around here. Not sure if you live in the Bay area or not, so maybe you’re not following as closely as those of us who do.
If someone says something you disagree with, they are being dishonest and lack self-awareness?
I’m not privy to anything that isn’t in the news. You might want to read the news. The BART spokesperson claimed that a manager was in the train and that it was on automatic to head to service and repair at the Concord Station. While it is not formal syllogistic logic to argue that a manager who had not driven a train in 20 years must be responsible, in can informally argue that the inexperience of the manager, the communications dispatcher and the repairmen led to the seventh and eight fatalities in 40 plus years of operation during the second day of a strike. Experienced drivers, dispatchers and repairmen have managed to work together for a much better safety record.
You seem to be arguing that the deaths were just a coincidence. I don’t let inexperienced people operate my toy trains. It is sheer arrogance and an invitation to disaster to let pointy haired bosses operate real trains. Two people got killed. Oops? Or are we going to pull an NRA it’s too soon connect allowing the deeply mentally disturbed to purchase lots of automatic weapons?
I live in Antioch. On Friday morning, the first day of the current strike, I needed to appear in Federal Court in SF. I printed up a sign that said “two free riders to the Civic Center” and left a few hours early. People could not take me up on the free rides and still get their tickets for the ride home on the shuttles. Typical BART management.
Yes, virtually everyone is pissed about the strike. But nobody knows what the unagreed portions are that hasn’t signed the mediation confidentiality. You may rest assured that the media reports that are trickling out are not sourced. The sources are violating confidentiality agreements they signed.
Of those union demands, the first I have heard is that the union wants their members that want it to receive not just email communications, but also traditional letter communications. I suppose either side could give in on this as it is not the be all and end all except for workers that do not use emails.
The next I have heard is that the union workers will not give in on fixed schedules. Management wants to change the workers schedules at will. Workers will not be able to plan their non-working lives long in advance around a known schedule. That is a big deal.
I have heard there is overtime abuse. Again, unsourced. I suppose there is overtime abuse, there usually is in many industries. I wouldn’t have any problem in eliminating the abuse of overtime. But I am not going to cross a picket line over it. It is one in many negotiated items. But then, I would no sooner cross a picket line than shoot someone.
As for the management being elected officials, that is incorrect. The Board of Directors are elected officials. Management is hired by the Board of Directors. The general manager is a relatively new manager who has been calling the shots with the backing of the board.
BART in general is run by managers that would make Dilbert’s pointy haired boss look like a genius. When they went to extend the train line from BayPoint about 10 miles to Antioch (where I live) did they continue the old track? No. They are putting in a new gauge for an entirely different train (diesel electric) that will take the passengers close to the real BART platform. They call this eBART, presumably for ersatz BART. The rationale is that it will be so much less expensive than real BART. Because the estimate for this new train with new rolling stock was supposedly less costly. Mind you, they could have put in just one set of tracks and we folks in Antioch would have been happy having just one train at a time. Whether this will actually save money buying a second set of rolling stock and maintaining it, we will never know, but I expect that the real cost will far exceed the estimate. Counting the Oakland Airport extension, this will make three different kinds of rolling stock for 104 miles (not sure whether that counts the extension). In short, BART is run and managed by idiots who think they can run three rolling stocks (I wonder if it is three gauges too) cheaper than one.
Yes, the strike is very inconvenient. But for number of hours and miles driven, the union drivers, comm and repair are astronomically safer than the current bunch. Here, the bugs being worked out actually turn out to be human lives. But most of the public doesn’t care as long as the trains run on time. Hail Il Duce. Turns out we are a bunch of fascists.
I have, though I probably wouldn’t now. It was a long time ago and I didn’t really care about the politics of anything, and I really wanted a thing this supermarket had that the other one ran out of.
No.
Unions have been whipped and kicked and demonized for a long time now. Their power is very low these days.
I will not cross a picket line.
You repeat this “personal amusement” mantra as though it were some kind of clinching argument. I’m not interested in whether union members are striking for their personal amusement, I want to know whether I think their cause is just!
The assumption I make is that given the hardship a strike entails for Union members, they have a damn good reason unless I have information to the contrary. In a battle between capital and workers, I will default to the side of the workers. (even if it causes my food prices to go up a smidgen.) If I have other relatively reasonable options, I would not cross a picket line.
I’d cross it with no hesitation. Never see anything like that in VA though.
Well, the SDMB consensus is, as always, reliably left.
I would cross a picket line, because I don’t want anyone else’s help in negotiating my salary and benefits. If i don’t like my job, I quit and find a new one. If I want a raise, I ask for it; if i don’t get it, then I see what else others might be paying. I would be ashamed to ask other people to pressure my employer on my behalf by withholding business.
So i won’t join in someone else’s “negotiation” that involves not simply withholding your own services --a perfectly acceptable tactic – but asking other unrelated people to join you. I wouldn’t be the striker; I won’t be the strike supporter.
Is VA a “right-to-work” state? (no snark, I genuinely don’t know)
Many of them strike because they were forced to join the union in order to work there and now the union is forcing them to strike and picket a certain number of hours a week. I am sure that they are not amused by that. My nephew had to join the union for his job and, in his opinion, they haven’t done shit for him except take part of his paycheck.
The last three supermarket strikes in my area, the end result was an increase in benefits for everyone who is currently a member and significantly less for everyone who got hired in the future. Fuck them. It’s nothing to do with helping their fellow worker and all about me me mine.
Generally speaking, I would learn about the issue as well as I could and then cross or not cross depending on the issue. If this one is anything like the last supermarket strike in my area, I would cross the line with great pleasure.