# Would you cross this grocery picket line? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 7, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078 "2003-10-07T15:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/41 "2003-10-08T04:18:19Z")
Hell no! ---
**Author:** ![JerH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@JerH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerH)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/42 "2003-10-08T14:42:54Z")
I might not cross the line, but not for any ideological reasons - only because I don’t want to be hassled. I have no particular respect for unions, but I believe that when when a company allows a negotiation to get to the strike stage it means that the company wasn’t managing its people very well, either now or at some point in the past, and that bad management has come back to haunt them. So not crossing the picket line is more a protest against bad management than support for workers. Semantics, I know, and the end result is the same, but it makes me feel better. ---
**Author:** ![simple\_homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@simple\_homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simple_homer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/43 "2003-10-08T15:11:37Z")
OTTO : I do not believe in unions for the same reasons that Doctor Jackson gave. Also, I believe in a free market. If you are a good employee you should be justly rewarded or should find work elsewhere. If you are a lousy employee, no company should be forced to keep you employed. Union members would receive a raise by getting rid of their union, and keeping the money in their own pocket instead of some corrupt union bosses pocket. Just my humble opinion, hope you feel better now. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/44 "2003-10-08T17:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SnoopyFan \* > \*\*I never had an opinion regarding unions until I moved to West Virginia. I can’t speak for all states, but here they have done SO much more harm than good. They’re one of the major reasons there are no good jobs here — no good-paying employer wants to move their business to a state in which they are guaranteed to have to deal with noisy, mean, gun-toting unions who would literally rather run a business out of state than to compromise on their new contract from time to time. Coupled with WV’s brutal taxes on businesses, it’s not worth it to even look at this state to set up shop. \*\* Having grown up in WV, I have to strongly disagree about the unions doing more harm than good. Read about the WV mine wars and the Battle of Blair Mountain. The WV cultural center has a Browning machine gun on display that was actually used by the State Police to fire on striking miners. They definately needed the union. Now that I have that out of the way, the unions as they exist now are utterly worthless and I agree 100% with your assessment of both them and WV’s tax structure. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/45 "2003-10-08T17:19:18Z")
I spent time in the grocery industry on both sides of the Union (UFCW Local 555). When a new store opened and the union had a meeting for employees to decide whether or not to organize, I was there. The union outright lied about benefits provided by the company for union workers and those for non-union workers. Supermarket chains are slashing costs across the board. They have to if they want to compete. I assume everyone who wouldn’t cross does no shopping at Walmart? If you do shop there, you’re merely making it harder for the union retail employees to get what they want. I know that Safeway in NW Oregon and SW Washington was ready to let the union strike if they didn’t accept their offer. They want the union broke. I heard it from the Division President himself (sorry, no written cite available). So I suppose I don’t know what I’d do. I feel for the people in these positions, but at the same time I know what the Companies are facing in terms of cost. I always thought the pay was fair, better than many other jobs, and to be honest you can learn these jobs in a few days. It’s a tough decidion, one that I don’t know if I want to make. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/46 "2003-10-09T01:18:46Z")
I’m a union member, and work in a supermarket. Just went over thirty years of service, HARD service. I agree the unions protect slackers, sometimes outrageously so, but not nearly as much as people have been led to believe. These days though, a man my age, at my pay scale, would be out on the street without a union. I’m tired of the company balancing the books by cutting hours and adding programs, putting more work on the people who have helped sustain it over the long haul. Some days I feel like I have a bullseye on the back of my head. My company would love to get rid of someone like me, but only because of how much I cost them. They never think about the more than extra mile they get out of me daily. Where’s the incentive to do a good job, outside of a paycheck, if the stress your working under is sometimes unbearable. I’ve been working for the public since I was thirteen. I’m not disgruntled because I’m in a service job, I’m sick and tired of being made to feel that MY very existence prevents the company from having a better bottom line. Everything is wage percentages[the amount of money used for the weekly payroll and benefits, as mirrored against what a store brings in] Every level of management is told to keep making the percentage better, and because it affects management bonuses, they all go overboard. So many profits are being siphoned out of our division, to pay for mistakes in others. Where’s the parity? It’s a case of having to take the bitter with the sweet, I suppose. So for me, and Woody Guthrie, I’m stickin’ with the union. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/47 "2003-10-09T02:38:02Z")
I would make a point of crossing. Why is it “the right thing” to not cross a picket line? That makes no sense. Why don’t union workers go on strike and demand $100 / hour? They could effectively hold the company hostage as no people would “cross the picket line”. I work in a non-union industry and I’m paid alot more than the minimum wage. So why is that? According to the union collectivists they should be paying me minimum wage? Why does any non-union job pay more than minimum wage if unions are the only reason anyone gets more than minimum? Answer: Competition. If you don’t like the low wages at a grocery store you are free to work elsewhere. I don’t see what the problem is. Unions are a thing of the past. Fat, lazy, corrupt. I love how the unions are helping to drive the big 3 auto makers into the ground. I don’t buy American cars (Japanese cars last much longer anyway) cause I don’t want to subsidize union laziness. I remember union scum in the 1970s bragging about their high wages while doing simple mindless jobs for steel and auto companies. They had the companies over a barrel. Then foreign competition came in and cleaned their clock. Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/48 "2003-10-09T04:51:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bri1600bv \* > \*\* I don’t buy American cars (Japanese cars last much longer anyway) \*\* I doubt that this is still true. Especially because cars are made all over. Toyota has plants in the US - so is that an American, or Japanese car? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/49 "2003-10-09T07:02:28Z")
I’d cross, assuming I didn’t feel like I was going to get the crap kicked out of me while putting my groceries in the trunk. This issue is between management and labor and frankly has nothing to do with me. It isn’t as if I’m hurting these people by shopping at their store- they wouldn’t be employed at all if I didn’t shop there. In any case, I live in Florida and shop at Publix… employee ownership tends to keep strikes and such from taking place, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/50 "2003-10-09T07:37:01Z")
I’d cross. It would be immoral to do anything else. ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/51 "2003-10-09T13:59:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mrbuddylee \* > \*\*If I didn’t have a job or had some spare time, I would probably apply for a temp position as well. > > “Temp position” is not the correct term. The correct word is “scab”. Always has been and always will be. > > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/52 "2003-10-09T14:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duderdude2 \* > \*\*Hell yeah I would have crossed. I don’t give a crap about other people’s pay, it’s their fault they have that crappy job, and they accepted the pay as is. \*\* Yeah, 'cause God knows better-paying jobs are just falling from the trees. I keep hearing all of these stories in the media about how high-paying employers just can’t find people to work. :rolleyes: Jesus Christ, man! Do you really think these people would work in such a crappy job for chicken-feed pay if there was an alternative? ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/53 "2003-10-09T16:35:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\*I’d cross. It would be immoral to do anything else. \*\* I already said that I wasn’t sure what I would do, but how in the world can you say it would be immoral to do anything but cross? Really, I’d like to hear your reasons for thinking that. ---
**Author:** ![mrbuddylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@mrbuddylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrbuddylee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/54 "2003-10-09T17:26:27Z")
Crossed last night and bought some groceries. It was very nice there. The cashiers were nice for once, lines were short. Very nice experience overall. Might go back today just for the hell of it. ---
**Author:** ![TaxGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@TaxGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TaxGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/55 "2003-10-09T18:19:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Yeah, 'cause God knows better-paying jobs are just falling from the trees. I keep hearing all of these stories in the media about how high-paying employers just can’t find people to work. :rolleyes: > > Jesus Christ, man! Do you really think these people would work in such a crappy job for chicken-feed pay if there was an alternative? \*\* Yeah, 'cause all these grocery store workers have degrees in computer programming or advanced skills and certifications, but they have to bag groceries because of the bad economy. :rolleyes: The point is that these people chose not to create alternatives for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/56 "2003-10-09T18:22:40Z")
It seems the St. Louis posters are divided about whether or not to cross. But for everyone out there, if you talk to either union or management, they’ll both agree that the bottom line isn’t about wages or benefits. Pure and simple, it’s about Wal-Mart. So far, the union and management have put together a united front to keep Wal-Mart (and those of its ilk) from putting in full-line grocery departments here in St. Louis. Nevertheless, the market for the full-line supermarkets has dropped (according to management) from 90% down to 55%. I’m not anti Wal-Mart, like some of the people on the board. But the Wal-Mart model – squeeze your suppliers and skimp on payroll – is not one I want to see universally adopted. Even my high-school son, who claims to be anti-union, concedes that our local supermarkets have better employees and better service than the local Wal-Marts. He just doesn’t make the connection that they have better employees and better service because they pay better, and the reason they pay better is because they’re unionized. It’s interesting that some of the people who use the capitalism or free market argument seem to feel that the owners can do whatever they want, and the workers’ alternative is to accept it or quit. Doesn’t a free market accept that the workers can make a counter-proposal, and that employer and employee can actually negotiate? The supermarket chains bound together as a group – one was struck and the other two locked out employees. Don’t the employees have a similar right to bind together for negotiations? Finally, I know people who’ve made a career out of working at these supermarkets. These people are not high school slackers looking for a couple of extra bucks, they’re honest-to-God husbands and wives trying to pay their bills. If you think the union is a bunch of overpaid slackers who are driving the price of your groceries up, fine. Shop somewhere else. But don’t you dare come back here and post that your boss sucks because you didn’t get a raise/have to pay for parking/had your health insurance cut. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/57 "2003-10-09T18:55:01Z")
I guess I just don’t care. I see unions out picketing in front of supermarkets, stores and other places of business all the time and I don’t give a second thought to shopping there. What am I supposed to do? Not show up to work today because our building’s maintenance guys are having a problem with the building manager? I don’t think so. If I actually cared, I would want to hear the management’s side of the story as well and then make my decision. I realize that the boss and his company are sitting on top of all the money in the world but I generally like to get all the facts before I drive halfway across town to get some milk. And why should I support them anyway? If they get raises, that might mean I have to pay more to shop there. Do I really want to take a hit in real earning power so someone I don’t know can make a little extra? I realize that as a upper-middle class educated white man I have all the money in the world, but I’d still like to save up to buy that Gulfstream II next year. I’ve never felt intimidated about crossing the supermarket picket line. It’s not like Mary from the bakery or the slow guy who wrangles the carts in the parking lot are going to start something. If they did try to intimidate me, that would only encourage me to shop at the store out of spite. I imagine it’s pretty hard for supermarket employees to unionize. The strength of a union comes from the fact that a factory can’t replace all it’s welders and machinists if they all stop working at the same time. It’s pretty easy to replace bagboys and cashiers. All it takes is one call to the local temp agency. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/58 "2003-10-09T19:03:54Z")
**Having grown up in WV, I have to strongly disagree about the unions doing more harm than good. Read about the WV mine wars and the Battle of Blair Mountain. The WV cultural center has a Browning machine gun on display that was actually used by the State Police to fire on striking miners. They definately needed the union.** Oh yeah, no arguments here **Balle\_M**. The coal unions were DEFINITELY needed back then. To hear them today, though, you would think they are being as mistreated now as they were in the past, though. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/59 "2003-10-09T19:18:24Z")
**kunilou** , I of course respect your ideas, but I think they’re a little flawed. Yes the free market accepts that workers can make counter-proposals, etc. _However_, shouldn’t it be done on a more individual employee-to-boss basis, instead of a whole mob of people threatening to destroy your business unless you give _everyone_ a raise? I’m not union. I can certainly go to my boss and say, “I want a raise.” I am valuable to my employer, and not wanting to go through the hassle of a search for an equivalent replacement, he may concede a little. In this particular economic climate however, he will say no, as is his right, or if I’m lucky I will get a _small_ increase. If I don’t like it, I may explore other opportunities. I am _not_ free to hold the business hostage until he meets my demands. The thing is, in this situation, it seems like these workers are shooting themselves in the foot. The job market is _slow_, the economy is down, and there are LOTS of people out there who would be happy to making _any_ kind of money. They are rushing in here to work temporarily at these markets by the thousands, and by and large they seem more than happy to do it. Times like this mean that the workers trying to negotiate are essentially less valuable to the employer than they would be in a better job market, because there are more than enough decent people out there waiting to accept these “easy-to-get” jobs. In a better job climate, replacements would be a little harder to find and other jobs would be easier for dissatisfied employees to get. Would I like a higher salary, better health insurance, and not to have to pay $500 for a parking space a mile’s walk away from my office–yes. But I can’t get those things from my current employer so I have to wait it out until something better comes along. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078/60 "2003-10-09T20:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kunilou \* > \*\* > But for everyone out there, if you talk to either union or management, they’ll both agree that the bottom line isn’t about wages or benefits. Pure and simple, it’s about Wal-Mart. > \*\* Same thing in the PacNW. It’s Wal-Mart everyone in the grocery business (vendors, employees, and employers) are scared of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/would-you-cross-this-grocery-picket-line/206078.md?page=4)